Re: How Religion Poisoned My Life ~ ExChristian.Net

Jim Jones — Mon, 21 May 2012 04:45:35 PDT

Is the divorce related to your loss of faith? If so, the bible is full of examples of Jews marrying non Jewish partners. Also, Jesus was quite clear: NO divorce.

Re: Secular reasoning and christian apologetic suicide ~ ExChristian.Net

unoder — Mon, 21 May 2012 04:44:41 PDT

If you think Craig is bad, then wait until you hear Sye ten Bruggencate. He was brought to my attention via a Thinking Atheist podcast and wow... I've never heard so much circular reasoning and sophistry in all my life. The guy literally attempts to dismantle logic in order to argue for the existence of god and firmly believes that it is impossible to use logic to argue against god because god is logic. He is also convinced, with complete certainty that everyone knows god exists really.

If you get a chance, listen to the Thinking Atheist podcast with him as a guest. The guy is a proper tool.

Re: Secular reasoning and christian apologetic suicide ~ ExChristian.Net

WizenedSage — Mon, 21 May 2012 03:17:30 PDT

Craig is just the latest in a long line of wacko theologians; he and Augustine are like peas in a pod:

"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe."
- Augustine

Isn't this saying that if you believe in Bigfoot, then you can see him? What they are all saying is, "Common sense be damned, full speed ahead!"

[-or maybe it's, "I'm puttin' my money on self-delusion!"]

Re: Pull The Darn Tooth ~ ExChristian.Net

WizenedSage — Mon, 21 May 2012 02:50:10 PDT

"I'm glad they don't hold onto those ugly parts. . . "

This is indeed troubling. I guess it is good that
believers reject the worst parts of the Bible, like killing gays, adulterers,
and people who work on Sunday, but it’s awfully damned confusing that they can
reject these parts and still worship this book and claim it provides sound moral
guidance. Why can’t they see that THEY are providing the moral guidance
themselves when they accept one part of the Bible but reject another part? Would
it make sense to recommend a restaurant that has a menu with prime rib and
boiled lobster on it when the menu also lists sewage cocktails, steamed road
kill, and raw maggots?

Re: The Prey ~ ExChristian.Net

renoliz — Mon, 21 May 2012 02:28:07 PDT

Lillian - You are a good friend. At least you did your best to warn her of the dangers of Christianity. It is too bad that she isn't capable of getting help for her problems from a better source and it is sad that she is being sucked into a group that believes in the afterlife instead a group that believes you need to not waste the one life you know you have!

Re: How Religion Poisoned My Life ~ ExChristian.Net

renoliz — Mon, 21 May 2012 02:23:07 PDT

I'm sorry to hear you have to go through this, Lee B. Best of luck to you.

Re: How Religion Poisoned My Life ~ ExChristian.Net

renoliz — Mon, 21 May 2012 02:21:52 PDT

RickRay-

Thanks for your story of how religion has affected your life. Everyone's life is a story and you told yours well. A lot of us don't have exotic lives filled with wild doings. I agree that if we have some special friends that accept us as we are and share a lot of our worldview, then life isn't so bad.
I will add, having been very poor in the past, that having some decent clothes and a snug place to live are things to be appreciated. I find I still have an appreciation and contentment in my life without god. Certainly the pressure has been lowered and my life is more enjoyable without trying to get people saved and without spending my time working for the Lord and worshiping the Lord and all of that.

It does seem like some very self-centered, bordering on mentally ill people gravitate to these evangelical churches. It's like the message is so self-centered that they are drawn to it. They are saved, they are special, they have a relationship with god. They have other friends at church that don't notice how self-centered they are because they are self-centered too:)

Keep up the good work with your Humanist group and attitudes.

Re: Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing... ~ ExChristian.Net

Stella Piercy — Mon, 21 May 2012 00:43:45 PDT

Actually I don't even know why these lyrics even needed to be printed here, on this website, who as an ex-believer would even want to read them or know they exist out there.......other brainwashed people are singing these lyrics and it's very sad to know this! I still struggle every day when I am reminded of how deceived I was and it makes me feel so foolish the songs I sang, the money I spent on xtian "junk", the church services I attended, the jeebus march I participated in! It is quite remarkable how my own thinking can just remove any love or interest I ever had in this "junk". I would never, ever go back to believing one bit of this garbage, even if I was the only non-believer on earth, but from this website I know that for sure I am not! I am grateful to read all posts and forums here, and to know that YES......there is such a person as an xtian, no matter what "they" would like us to believe!

Re: Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing... ~ ExChristian.Net

Paine — Sun, 20 May 2012 22:46:04 PDT

This is the song that the main character sings in the movie, "LOVE COMES SOFTLY", based on that Janet Oake Christian "classic" (gag) of the same title.

I love that movie series. I still do. I marvel at the innocent, SIMPLE belief of those pioneer people who were lucky enough to make it to thirty without falling off a horse and dying......oh....well....you know what I mean.

SIMPLE FAITH. Accent on SIMPLE. I wish I had it. I ENVY those who do. It was good enough for my grandmother. And I am glad she had it. It worked for her. I live in a different world. A bigger world. In many ways that makes me sad.

I have traded in innocent belief in prayer to a Sky God for being able to vaccinate my children against deadly diseases. I have traded the soothing faith of the uneducated for the reassurance of my own individual worth based on all the knowledge I could gain, not from a magic tree, but from a University and travel to the libraries of the world.

Frankly, it is a lonely place. I would give anything to be able to smile the gentle smile of my grandmother as she hummed hymns to get through her hard life; the life that demanded the solace of faith. Life is no less hard>>>>what are we to cling to? Oh yeah...thine own understanding.

And that has to be good enough.

Re: Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing... ~ ExChristian.Net

ToonForever — Sun, 20 May 2012 20:51:26 PDT

I realize I haven't left God, but rather that God (or at least the God I used to believe in) is not there.

Sometimes I wish I could engrave that on a nail and hammer it into the skull of the next believer who asks me why I left god and insists I know deep down inside that he's there, that I've turned my back on him in order to live the way *I* want to. So aggravating.

I now find I can't listen to many Christian songs - not modern ones anyway. They mean nothing to me. They're the sounds and the words of my delusion.

**edit** - And I should clarify that I was the worship lead for my church for the previous 8 years before deconverting.

Re: Pull The Darn Tooth ~ ExChristian.Net

PaulDouglas — Sun, 20 May 2012 14:58:01 PDT

Wizened! That might be a great project for athiests who travel. Start placing hard to remove stickers on Gideon Bibles in motels & hotels repeating your quote:"The teachings and advice in this book are based on ancient superstitions and should not be taken seriously!!!" It could be a new ministry!

Re: How Religion Poisoned My Life ~ ExChristian.Net

Lee B — Sun, 20 May 2012 14:46:49 PDT

Thanks for sharing this. I became a Christian at age 19, and married a Christian girl when I was 25. At age 40 I lost my faith. That was almost 3 years ago, and now I'm in the middle of a divorce. We would've been married 18 years this June. We have two kids, a girl 10, and a boy 9. It sucks like hell.

Re: Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing... ~ ExChristian.Net

Brian Kellogg — Sun, 20 May 2012 14:06:23 PDT

Journey, Van Halen, Def Leppard, ...

Re: Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing... ~ ExChristian.Net

Brian Kellogg — Sun, 20 May 2012 13:45:22 PDT

You are absolutely correct. It isn't that easy; no where close. I hated myself for years wondering what was wrong with me; why couldn't I just fall in line.

Xianity afforded me a lot of easy answers, and I love answers. The homogeneity and the easy black and white classifications made life uncomplicated. It was an incredibly humbling experience to realize how wrong I was year after year as I slowly refined my beliefs trying to hang onto everything I thought I could. At the end of the process I found truth to be indifferent to my wants and wishes and I lost all my easy answers.

Wonder and mystery are exceptionally beautiful states of mind.

Re: Sacrifice ~ ExChristian.Net

searchinwithnoagenda — Sun, 20 May 2012 13:00:58 PDT

My word, that is so spot on it's as if I told you my experiences. Again, the thinking/feeling person assumes that it's they that are the insane one when in FACT it is the ones that need their social fix at all costs that tend to be the nut jobs.

Re: Secular reasoning and christian apologetic suicide ~ ExChristian.Net

renoliz — Sun, 20 May 2012 12:25:09 PDT

One problem with William Lane Craig [and many other Christian apologists] is that he really argues for some sort of vague deistic god and then, voila, that god turns out to be Yahweh! He won't argue for his god, instead he argues there is a god, there really is. The god he argues for isn't the god he believes in.
It is a real slight of hand and is deceitful. This is a tough one for many Christians in the audience to notice but it hasn't slid by me when I have watched some of WLC in action.

We've had Christians on this website do the same thing. They talk about a god but they mean Yahweh the Wonderful, don't they?

Re: Pull The Darn Tooth ~ ExChristian.Net

jackbauer — Sun, 20 May 2012 12:16:45 PDT

In a way, I'm glad to see that a lot of Christians don't follow everything in the Bible. It shows that they have a mind of their own and don't blindly obey whatever their church tells them.

On the other hand, I don't know why they insist on defending these religions when there is so much wrong with them. I'm glad they don't hold onto those ugly parts, but as tolerant as they are, they still get defensive of people criticizing the faith. This is despite the fact that what I'm criticizing are the parts of the faith they probably reject. Well if you reject those parts, than why get so defensive?

Re: Secular reasoning and christian apologetic suicide ~ ExChristian.Net

Jim Jones — Sun, 20 May 2012 11:08:34 PDT

No, I got that OK.

Re: Secular reasoning and christian apologetic suicide ~ ExChristian.Net

Jim Jones — Sun, 20 May 2012 11:07:57 PDT

"Now what the hell does that mean?"

It's a load of bollocks. It means their imaginary playmate told them so.

Re: Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing... ~ ExChristian.Net

Jim Jones — Sun, 20 May 2012 11:04:20 PDT

"Where's my "Best of Queen" album?"

Or Lords of Acid. Or Twisted Sister.

Re: Secular reasoning and christian apologetic suicide ~ ExChristian.Net

Brian Kellogg — Sun, 20 May 2012 10:39:43 PDT

Exactly, well put.

Re: Secular reasoning and christian apologetic suicide ~ ExChristian.Net

Brian Kellogg — Sun, 20 May 2012 10:34:10 PDT

"The anthropological argument argues for the existence of god due to the need for moral absolutes and the fact that most are born with an innate knowledge of basic right and wrong."

The above was a summation of the xian argument not a statement of fact. Should of made that more clear.

Re: Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing... ~ ExChristian.Net

John Shores — Sun, 20 May 2012 09:56:55 PDT

This song, like so much of what I believed, now sounds to my ears completely ludicrous.

"Streams of mercy, never ceasing," and "O to grace how great a debtor daily I'm constrained to be!" imply something so sinister. In order to believe them, I must despise what it means to be human and be grateful that God has forgiven me for the fault of our natures.

"Let Thy goodness, like a fetter, bind my wandering heart to Thee" - That'd be great if the god of the Bible actually showed any measure of goodness. In actually, as a whole, the character of that god is not one that any but the criminally insane would want to emulate.

"Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it, prone to leave the God I love" - Because I have thoughts and Reason.

"Here's my heart, O take and seal it..." - Voluntary slavery to an odious character. No thanks.

And now I'm gonna have this song stuck in my head for the rest of the day. :o)

Where's by "Best of Queen" album?

Re: Letters From Camp ~ ExChristian.Net

The Truth Seeker — Sun, 20 May 2012 09:20:16 PDT

Excellent poety Lauren and so aptly said. The Christians are still looking for that lost sheep that left the fold and they would ask Christ to go get you but they know he won't go. So all they can do is hope you can come back and no one else leaves.

Re: Secular reasoning and christian apologetic suicide ~ ExChristian.Net

The Truth Seeker — Sun, 20 May 2012 09:01:11 PDT

And this is what I can't stand about Christian apologists. They make statements like:"The way in which I know Christianity is true is first and foremost is the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart".

Now what the hell does that mean? No one knows because only Craig hears that witness. How can you argue with anyone that makes statements like that? If all Christianity is proved false, Craig still has the witness of the Holy Spirity in his heart. So nyah nyah you dirty atheists I still win out. And that's the only thing Craig is interested in is winning out. Nevermind that he has to do it by coming up with a meaningless phrase that no one could ever disprove.

Thanks for your writing Brian. A very cogent and strong argument that there is no moral right and wrong except that within our heart which was not put there by some myth in the sky.

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