Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

Cousin Ricky — Fri, 24 May 2013 05:13:53 PDT

... I was thinking the other day about how any of our experiences and logical ideas are just as "real" and legitimate to us as Christians think the Bible and all their witnessing is to them! Even if they don't agree, they need to respect that!

But many of them will not, most often the ones who will not leave us alone (and then accuse us of not leaving them alone). They will ask us a question, smugly “knowing” the answer in advance; and when we give them an answer they weren’t expecting or didn’t want to hear, they flat out refuse to believe us. Like, why did you waste my time asking the question? Or sometimes they do know how we will answer, but have decided in advance that we are lying about ourselves. In these cases, they just want to rub their arrogance (which they call “humility”) in our faces.

This article is about atheists being blown off, but I have a feeling it can be generalized to non-adherents in general.

Re: A Confused Christian ~ ExChristian.Net

Daniel out of the Lion's Den — Fri, 24 May 2013 05:09:14 PDT

Frankly, that's like telling a person drowning in the ocean, "Stay out there a little while longer to make sure you know you're drowning before asking for a lifeguard!" or telling an inhabitant of Jonestown, "Drink a little more of that Koolaid to make sure it's laced with cyanide before you pour it on the ground!"

Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

boomSLANG — Fri, 24 May 2013 05:05:55 PDT

"Many people turn away from God because they do not know how to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit"

Uh-huh....and yet, others "turn away from God" because it finally dawns on them that the supposed "voice of the Holy Spirit" is simply their own voice in their own head, AKA, their own conscience. IOW, there is no "God". Once they figure that much out, then it becomes crystal clear why "the voice of the Holy Spirit" seems to be telling each believer entirely different things, and lo and behold, each personalized chunk of advice just so happens to perfectly match each individual's very own views. Wow! What a coincidence, right?!?!?!?!

"God is omnipotent; He does whatever He pleases."

Ah, yes, the appeal to authority, "Might Makes Right", argument. If a Martian landed here and told you to kill your daughter or son, (I'm guessing/hoping that) you'd tell that little spaceman to take a frickin' hike. If the President said, "Anyone who doesn't worship me gets dowsed with gasoline and burned alive!", (I'm guessing/hoping that) you'd say the same thing and vote to impeach and lock up such a President in a loony bin.

Now enter "God":

If "God" makes the same sorts of insane remarks as above, you are all good with it. And why are you all good with it? Why of course, because "God" is "omnipotent"! And speaking of "omnipotent", you say and actually believe this.....

"Little did I know that God would use my cousin's death to bless me with
the sweetest, most affectionate, and caring man that I have ever met."

You have no clue how cruel, stupid, insensitive, and narcissistic you sound. Then again, you're a victim, aren't you? Yes, and being such, it never occurred to you that if your "God" is "omnipotent", well sh*t, then he could have arranged for you to meet the sweetest, most affectionate, caring man that you've ever met at the frickin' grocery store or laundry mat('funny how other people meet like that), sparing your cousin's LIFE!! Hello? Seriously, the idea that someone had to DIE so that you could meet your "soul mate" is utterly preposterous. Then again, you and your ilk feel "blessed" that an innocent man was executed in y'all's place. Best of luck with that.

Re: Religions: The More They Differ, the More They're the Same

Daniel out of the Lion's Den — Fri, 24 May 2013 05:01:19 PDT

oh, that is sad... that poor woman!

Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

Cousin Ricky — Fri, 24 May 2013 04:55:56 PDT

So I had this really thought out response to you, but Disqus, being the syphilitic, rat-bastard that it is, instantly lagged after I clicked POST and lost it.

I usually type my posts into a word processor or text editor before submitting them to the Internet. I was driven to this not by Disqus, but by my experience having worse Internet service, by an order of magnitude, than any place I have visited and used the Internet. Just too many times spending two hours on the perfect response, just to have the line drop during submission. It has shaken my “faith” in the Copernican Principle, because how else is it that I was chosen to have the worst Internet service in the country? (A fringe benefit of using a word processor is that I get those beautiful quotation marks and apostrophes, although one has to be careful when coding an HTML link, as the pretty quotation marks will cause the link to fail.)

Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

SP — Fri, 24 May 2013 03:23:05 PDT

Wow, how inspired they must have been...not.

Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

SP — Fri, 24 May 2013 02:55:50 PDT

I don't know how to say this (I'm sure it will come out wrong lol), but I was thinking the other day about how any of our experiences and logical ideas are just as "real" and legitimate to us as Christians think the Bible and all their witnessing is to them! Even if they don't agree, they need to respect that!

Then, you remind me how literally important facts are! Thanks for reminding me @ yes, Disque is giving me trouble too.

Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

SP — Fri, 24 May 2013 02:50:38 PDT

One never really knows what words or logic gets through to another person....which is what is great about this format. Discordia, as well as you and many other's view points on ExC have helped me to think, which is the spring board for ideas. Looking back, I can remember simple words and thoughts dropped by atheists (I did not know they were at the time...but they are so smart!) that I held onto like pieces of a puzzle I was able to save and put together.

Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

SP — Fri, 24 May 2013 02:35:36 PDT

Reading your story only cements my decision to not be a Christian anymore. You have made all those connections and attributed them to God. Since I have deconverted, I have actually had many MORE instances of good fortune and warm, fuzzy feelings...I just don't have a middle man in my head to thank or pay anymore.

But hey, if you are happy that way, more power to you.

Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

Brian Kellogg — Fri, 24 May 2013 02:27:22 PDT

Understood, and I agree with you except on the word dogmatism. As I didn't mean to smear every atheist as dogmatic as most I've talked to aren't. It was more of a general use saying that yes even atheists can succumb to dogmatism. I know I can and have.

I love words and I do not want to surrender good ones just because religion may have co-opted them; just my personal stance.

Personally I try to remember that dogmatism is easy to fall into. It may just be me though and I'm willing to admit that as I do not fit nicely into what most people would classify as normal.

Re: Will the Catholic Bishops Decide How You Die?

SP — Fri, 24 May 2013 02:22:12 PDT

They are supposed to "do no harm" but when you get into what people believe is right and wrong, from a religious/philosophical stand point, what that means getting muddied and people get hurt.

Re: Religions: The More They Differ, the More They're the Same

SP — Fri, 24 May 2013 02:16:23 PDT

"But I would love to read the extimonies on an exmuslim.net!"

I'm sure they are out there but it has to be much harder for them to recover from...especially the women. I'm really friendly and was having a chat with the pakastani lady who was checking me out as I filled up my car (and we live in an area with a growing muslim community with many from the middle east who own convenience stores). Anyway, she wanted a friend soooo bad. She gave me a couple small gifts and asked if we could be friends! She was about to give me her number when this guy came out and looked sternly at her and she recoiled. I felt so bad for her.

Re: Religions: The More They Differ, the More They're the Same

SP — Fri, 24 May 2013 02:07:33 PDT

How were you able to meet them? I have not heard from anyone from church in a while, until the other night. It was the bishop's wife who called out of the blue, around 8pm, to see my daughter. We had all just eaten, were sitting around in our comfortable clothes, tired and relaxing, talking about the day....dishes in the sink, the house a bit of a mess, etc. Anyway, not at all in any position to want any guests (but, if you knew me, you'd know I have a hard time saying "no")...she was in already in our drive way! I know this seems like a small victory, but I politely refused.

The next day, I had another situation with a family member (also LDS) in which my boundaries were pushed. This time, I was able to pull from my hat of carefully chosen responses, brought about through reason and critical thinking, and deflected her attempts to mentally and emotionally control/punish me. Before, I would have folded. The classic part: I managed to handle it with a measure of style and grace, even confidence. I'm kind of proud of me. :)

Nothing in Mormonism/Christianity would have provided me with the tools to handle any of that. It is when our boundaries have been crossed, so many times, by religious people who truly believe they are entitled, that we are left confused and feeling like our lives are not our own. What has helped me way more, are basic mentally-healthy, psychological principals, good old common sense and being able to have the support of a few like-minded people. :)

Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

Discordia — Fri, 24 May 2013 02:06:49 PDT

So I had this really thought out response to you, but Disqus, being the syphilitic, rat-bastard that it is, instantly lagged after I clicked POST and lost it.

****

So, this will be far less thought out but I hope still covering the gist of my original reply.

Fundamentalism: A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

Dogmatic: Characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles. (emphasis mine)

I think the thing that is an issue for me is that you are using words thickly associated with religion to describe atheists. I had as well use "color saturated" and "polarizing lens filter" to describe how my car runs while idling. For me as an atheist, my worldview is scientific and based in proven and provable facts. It is a very secular worldview, something completely opposed to a fundamentalist view of anything. There is nothing dogmatic about the theory of gravity or the germ theory of disease, both theories I hold as fact.

Am I intolerant of religious-based legislation? Why, yes. Yes I am. Why? Because it doesn't have a shred of scientific proof to back up it's claims, such as evidence to support the logically implausible idea of a 5,000 year old Earth. Do I oppose secularism? I AM a secularist, so no, I do not. Can I be arrogant in my comments? Oh fvck yeah! (in case no one has noticed.) Do I support unproven and unprovable ideas, such as there is an angry sky-fairy/thunder-mountain god waiting to burn me in hell forever and ever for not believing in it even though it made me into the sort of person that would require said proof? Uhh.... no. I support ideas that have been proven and ideas that make logical and/or scientific sense. Religion has no qualifiers as either logical or scientifically accurate.

I think I have an idea as to where you are trying to go with your thoughts, but I don't believe that religious-based words should be used to use to get there. Well, maybe you can get there from here but I don't think it will be a fun trip.

********

PS to DISQUS-- You'd better hope I never see you across the street on fire because the only reason I would cross those lanes of traffic would be to pour accelerant on you or zap you with an electromagnet, you sorry, crack-coded fvcking fvcker.

Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

Brian Kellogg — Fri, 24 May 2013 01:57:18 PDT

No, let them post. And I hope more of them post. We need to have the honest and raw discussions. Even if we can just get one of them to honestly evaluate their "faith" it is worth it to me.

But I can certainly understand where you are coming from. Perhaps this is the wrong site for these discussions though.

Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

Brian Kellogg — Fri, 24 May 2013 01:52:11 PDT

I have to comment on this and my apologies because I'm going to be very blunt.

"He does whatever He pleases."

And so do many dictators, but you would not follow such behavior in a human, I hope, why do you give your idea of a god such a moral pass? Shouldn't this god be better than us, something we can aspire too. This is disturbing and why I will continue to push back against unthinking fundamentalist moral vacancy when it comes to their god.

----------------------------------------------

"I realized that the reader has never understood God's plan for his life. When you can discern God's voice, life's obstacles become easier to deal with. So, I do feel for you. It's really heart-wrenching that you deconverted because of lack of spiritual guidance."

Um no, please don't be so intellectually lazy thinking you can write my honest deconversion off to some simple emotional/relational ploy. I deconverted from fundamentalist christianity because it is wrong on so many levels. Emotional need does not trump intellectual and personal integrity.

"When you can discern God's voice, life's obstacles become easier to deal with."

Is that all you are concerned with; making life's obstacles emotionally easier? Hell pick any delusion as there are many that will do the same.

----------------------------------------------

"My cousin still hold a special place in my heart because I have been happily married to this godly man for 9 years."

Umm, wow! So glad god took his life so you could find your husband, really I am. I'm sure your cousin's parents are ecstatic over what god did for just you. It isn't all about you. You are not the center of the Universe. This is veiled narcissism; at least I hope its veiled.

----------------------------------------------

"A year before my cousin passed away, a prophetess prophesied that God would bless me during a time of sadness."

Really?! How more generic can you get in a prophecy? I've seen and personally heard and given better when I was in charismatic christian ministry. As many have stated before when you want to believe something bad enough confirmation bias will abound.

---------------------------------------------

"The Abraham story may not make sense to you, but God foreknew that Issac would not be sacrificed that day. God provided a lamb for the sacrifice. God was teaching Abraham a lesson about obedience and trust."

All the bible writers were showing is that they can severely contradict themselves. All you have shown me in your response is if your emotions want something to be true bad enough you are willing to disengage your mind and not think for yourself. This is what frightens me about any fundamentalist religious follower. CRITICAL THINKING PLEASE!!!

---------------------------------------------

The bible is not inerrant so I'm begging you please investigate it for yourself, honestly investigate. Surely you've read about the noble Bereans? But I suspect you won't as how you believe now meets your emotional needs. Therefore I predict you will just continue on in your unquestioned delusion because after all your god demands unthinking obedience. I would be willing to wager on that prophecy of mine.

So no thank you, I will pass. Faith whose prerequisite is ignorance is simply self delusion. Faith + Ignorance = Delusion.

Why is your god afraid of questions and their answers? More personally, why is your faith afraid of them?

Re: Why do most people easily trust anecdotes and dismiss data when paranormal is served?

Discordia — Fri, 24 May 2013 00:25:34 PDT

Well, all of us managed to get out of that mental prison, so I'd have to say, yes, there is at least some hope.

Re: Religions: The More They Differ, the More They're the Same

Daniel out of the Lion's Den — Fri, 24 May 2013 00:02:43 PDT

"Within every faith are heretics, and, since no one has any evidence of what is true or not in belief systems, everyone is a heretic."

How true! I heard a comedian joke once that the one thing a religious person gets right is that all the other religions are wrong - AHAHAHA! I agree that the path out of Christianity would be similar to the path out of, say, Islam. But I don't think we could all relate the same. But I would love to read the extimonies on an exmuslim.net!

Re: Why do most people easily trust anecdotes and dismiss data when paranormal is served?

Doubting Thomas — Thu, 23 May 2013 20:45:49 PDT

Hmm... I see your point... I agree with you that it is stupid to split the world on natural and supernatural. Something we do not understand clearly can easily be transfered into a domain of supernatural. Miracles are just one of those phenomena - we can look at them as a natural process or declare them divine. I am not sure that testimonies have same empirical value as scientific analysys. People often describe same event on different ways, there are researches that confirm that (http://www.csicop.org/si/show/..., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.... Regarding homeopathy, as far as I now it works but same as placebo does :) You can google it for yourself, here is one link: https://www.mja.com.au/journal...

Re: A Confused Christian ~ ExChristian.Net

milesaway — Thu, 23 May 2013 20:30:18 PDT

It's more proof as to how shallow and selfish xtianity really is, despite their howling about how selfishness is bad, so on and so forth. When push comes to shove, it's all about me, me, me, me, and fukk everyone else.

Re: A Confused Christian ~ ExChristian.Net

milesaway — Thu, 23 May 2013 20:27:33 PDT

I'm sure the author understands the faith and all its contradictions perfectly fine. And i'm sure they understand what they're rejecting too. Nothing they've written lead me to believe otherwise. You admit it's not all true, so why shouldn't we reject things that only contain partial truths? We're well within our rights to do so. Not enough evidence? What kind of evidence will it take? How much evidence will it take? For all we know, this is probably the tip of the iceberg for the author. As far as i'm concerned, the author's earned the right to give up now before they're a total wreck.

Chances are, the author's already been there, done that by talking to another xtian. And chances are, whatever discussions took place got them nowhere new. That's assuming the author wasn't ignored or patronized, or given the same canned responses to shut them up.

So you're basically telling the author to cherry pick the buybull and their doctrines in order to make sense out of nonsense. It doesn't work that way, and furthermore, it doesn't work at all. Any book that requires one to cherry pick in order to find some grain of truth, even if it's common sense, is not a book that's worth the effort to read. What's on those pages says it all, no amount of mental gymnastics will make it otherwise. What kind of "context" makes crap like slavery and genocide in the old testament okay? What kind of "context" makes the blatant contradictions and inaccuracies okay? What makes the xtian god loving and good? What makes him just and righteous?

Gods are supposedly omnipotent, and yet they choose to do nothing when horrible things happen. Doing nothing when something awful is happening makes someone a bystander, and a bystander essentially condones awful behavior whether they mean to or not. What kind of "reason" is there for all the violence in the old testament? How about the violence done in the name of religion time and time again throughout the annals of history? How about all the senseless violence in the news? Can there even BE a reason for it?!

Okay, so you're figuring out whether or not you're done with xtianity. I would think you'd be a little more supportive toward the author, since you're kind of in the same boat. But maybe that's just me. Anyways, they've made it clear xtianity is no longer working for them, and it sounds like that's the case with you. I'm not gonna ask for details. Not my place to do so. It's your story, you get to tell it, and on your terms. :) For argument's sake, i'm sure you meant well. However, what you're saying comes off like a major slap in the face to someone in the author's predicament. Maybe it wouldn't hurt for you to have a look around the site and at the books mentioned here too.

Re: Religions: The More They Differ, the More They're the Same

Positivist — Thu, 23 May 2013 19:25:07 PDT

I have recently become friends with several ex-Mormons. I myself am an ex-fundagelical of the charismaniac variety, but I am continually amazed at just how much I have in common as an ex-believer with ex-Mormons. We compare notes and just shake our heads.

Great point, Carl!

Re: Will the Catholic Bishops Decide How You Die?

Brett — Thu, 23 May 2013 18:48:25 PDT

There's a lot to be angry about but the lady who was advised to have her fallopian tube removed is the one that made me the most angry. She was supposed to be cut open, butchered and made 50% sterile when she could have taken a pill. The silence of the doctor is abhorrent. He, I assume "he" is a disgusting human being and a disgrace to the medical profession.

Re: God condemns himself -- updated and further refined

Astreja — Thu, 23 May 2013 17:38:49 PDT

Valencia, what part of Ex-Christian do you not understand?

Quite frankly, I think "the voice of the Holy Spirit" is nothing more than the voice of your own imagination. I also think that all the so-called "blessings" are merely confirmation bias -- Seizing opportunities that you recognized because they matched your previous prayers, or someone else's "prophesy."

Finally, since this is a support site for people who are not interested in returning to Christianity, I vote that you be banned immediately to prevent you from exploiting vulnerable people by "encouraging" them. All in favour, say "Aye!"

Re: A Confused Christian ~ ExChristian.Net

searchinwithnoagenda — Thu, 23 May 2013 17:34:55 PDT

I don't vent very often but I spent decades trying to reconcile their BS to logic/reason/reality and I simply cannot do it. And I resent losing all those years to them and their idiocy and mind twisting control. I simply don't do pretzel anymore. I'm done.

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