ExChristian.Net -- encouraging ex-Christians

Dear Aggravated Believers

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sun, 27 May 2012 04:42:42 PDT

By Carl S ~

We are NOT going away. We have tolerated 2000+ years of being silenced, suppressed, persecuted, tortured and killed, simply because we disagree with religious beliefs. Don't expect us to back down. Over the span of 2000+ years, you STILL have NO evidence to verify your claims. And with every new piece of scientific evidence to back up natural explanations formerly attributed to invisible "supernatural" forces, your god melts like the Wicked Witch of the West. Don't expect us to not keep reminding you of this as long as you arrogantly try to force your will on the rest of society as "the laws of God." You have no more legitimacy than any of the other thousands of religions.

So, get used to our voices. Adjust to opinions and beliefs other than your own: beliefs in the rights of humans over themselves, in the inherent goodness of mankind, and the destructiveness which is caused through blind, unthinking obedience to dogmas.

If you didn’t want us to get so pissed off, you shouldn't have treated us, and continue to treat us, with such indifference, contempt, and prejudice. We are sick of being belittled. We are also sick of the arrogance and domination of your spokesmen, the televangelist millionaires, with your support and quiet compliance eating up monies in their houses of worship, while our fellow human beings die like flies from preventable causes, starvation, and religious sectarian wars. We are sick of watching hypocrisy and narrow-mindedness masquerading as virtue.

We will not be denigrated because we "lack" superstitions, a.k.a. "beliefs," and do not accept invisible, supernatural, ghost-forces in control of Nature.

We will CONTINUE to promote reason, curiosity, and skepticism, despite your efforts to thwart such thinking and reasoning. We shall fight for our right to free expression. If your religious beliefs were truly right, you would never have had to resort to the slayings you formerly engaged in as a matter of policy; such methods are the hallmark of someone in the wrong. Without them and without fear tactics, you would not have been able to last this long. (Remember- the ancient Egyptian gods were in existence longer than your god.)

Without your former controlling mechanisms, you are revealed as the manipulating man behind the curtain, and we will continue to pull that curtain back. Without those methods, you are left to be apologists, and you are looking pretty unreasonable and often silly with those explanations, when not downright cold regarding human suffering and needs.

We realize, as African-Americans, homosexuals, and all others who suffered prejudice have found out, that we also have rights you don't want to recognize, and that we too, must fight like hell to get them. We do not appreciate, for example, being left out as citizens, as you demand your sectarian prayers at public functions. None of us will put up with further bullying. You wouldn't, if a Moslem or Hindu took over beginning a public meeting with his/her prayers, so you understand where we're coming from. The tyranny of the majority is un-American, and un- Constitutional.

If what you believe and maintain is so ultra-powerful and ultra-real, why have you done everything possible to keep yourselves frightened lest you hear any different interpretation of reality than your own? After 2000+ years, the best you can come up with is to tell people to "believe." That's it? What other system except the most repressive, asks that of humans?

We are tired of boring sermons, hearing about a "Jesus", of whom no proof is offered that he ever existed. We do not want any more intransigent inflexibility from any quarter. Life is too short to tolerate these things. No one in the 21st century should be asked to believe without evidence anything claimed to be all-important. In the past thousands of years we have learned and want to pass on to our children and all children what has been discovered and confirmed in that span of time. It would be morally unfair to teach them to return to times of ignorance as if they were founts of wisdom. We will not allow them to be mired in dark, cruel, immoral, scriptural mindsets, and will oppose your efforts to promulgate them. If, for instance, you cannot accept the fact of evolution, stand aside, because your children CAN. Do not teach them that nature is wrong because it doesn't agree with your scriptures. Please.

Our time has come. It is long overdue that we are allowed out in the open, speaking out and known. You have had yours, and have seized it with force, fear, threats, killings, indoctrination, and coercion. The world is going away from those methods. We are not "getting even," we are allowing the free flow of ideas and the quiet voice of reason to speak. Step aside. And listen.

Immoral Without God

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sat, 26 May 2012 11:18:10 PDT

By JC ~

I swear I am not making this up.

I subscribe to a priest's FB stuff because, honestly, some of what he posts is really interesting to me. However, in a recent post, we got into a discussion about moral laws (e.g. "Go kill all the Jews and Gypsies") to which I responded that when the law is immoral it's our duty to disobey it. Here's where the conversation went from there:

Priest:

English: The inside of an Orthodox church. Greek Orthodox Church. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

John, let me ask you this: You say "When the law is immoral, it is our duty to disobey," and "the law itself is insipid." On what basis do you call a law immoral? Without God as guide and teacher, ultimately there is no arbiter of morality except oneself.

Your Truly:

Your question is based on a common fallacy. To state that one cannot be moral without god is not well thought out.

For the sake of argument, let us suppose that there are moral laws that are absolute. If that is true, God must be bound by them, yes? But God has committed murder (both personally committing genocide and ordering his people to do so), adultery (impregnating the wife of Joseph), left a murderer and alduterer unpunished (taking out the punishment on the innocent child conceived by Bathsheba instead (and where does the anti-abortion crowd stand on THAT issue?)), instructing his people to steal from other people that they conquered, intentional obfuscation (Matthew 13:13), and coveting (Exodus 20:5).

If we say that the Judeo-Christian god is moral, then genocide and slavery are morally justified and the only thing Hitler did wrong was try to wipe out people without getting god's permission first. Even as late as Colossians we read that a slave should submit to his/her master - not that slavery is immoral.

As a moral guide, any deity you name falls horribly short of a worthy standard.

Indeed, this is why I left Christianity. When comparing "God the Father" to any human father I have ever known, not one man that I could think of failed to be superior to god. If we say "god is good" and look at the god of the Bible, we come away baffled.

What many religious fail to admit is that morality is not strictly a human characteristic. Here's a good example:

http://new.exchristian.net/2012/05/frans-de-waal-moral-behavior-in-animals.html

Indeed, many religious hate to admit that humans are actually part of the animal kingdom, despite all the evidence.

Morality is innate in many species. It is far more complex in humans, to be sure, but what of that? We are complex creatures.

I would also point out that your presupposition is proven erroneous by human history. There is not one theistic society that has failed to screw over anyone of a different faith.

Moreover, 2 Cor 5:17 is a bald-faced lie. Christians are not a "new creature" at all! They have the same nature as every other human being. They just obsess over their human failings more than most. Want proof? Explain to me why the church is so fractured? Even among Orthodox Christians, all y'all are like Scottish clans that war with each other. Same goes for every religion ever known to man. There is nothing "new" about Christians at all.

That said, how can one claim that a person cannot be moral without god? If that was true, why aren't atheists all debauched? How is it possible for us to be moral when we deny that any god exists? The premise is flawed.

Priest:

John, I know you'll take this as a copout, but this forum was long ago designed not for debate. As my info tab explains, "My main intent is to inform and embolden and give resources to Christians to speak out on certain "politically incorrect" issues, such as euthanasia, destructive embryonic stem cell experimentation, cloning, homosexuality, Islam, etc.

I post the truth about abortion, for instance, and inform Christians of what the mainstream media doesn't give coverage to. Additionally, I post because I believe we Orthodox (and clergy in general) need correction for our compromise on these issues. My posts are not for everybody. I don't write them to be, and I don't intend them to be. Those I actively try to find and ask for FBfriendship are Christian clergy (bishops, priests, pastors, elders, ministers, brothers, trustees, deacons, deaconesses, monks and nuns), and serious Orthodox Christian faithful.

But I don't turn down anyone for FBfriendship. So, sometimes my confrontational style and the topics of my posts offend some people I don't intend or want to offend. For instance, I wouldn't post what I post about Islam to Muslims. A different approach entirely is required, just for the sake of kindness. I wouldn't post what I post about abortion to women who are hurting in its aftermath. I would, of course, take a completely different approach and attitude. Please keep this in mind as you consider beFBfriending me. ***It is beyond the scope of my posts to debate about the merits of Christianity or a Biblical worldview. My posts are designed for those who already surrender to Christ and are seeking to submit to God's Word, as the Church has taught it.*** It's not my intent to debate at all, but to inform, correct and encourage."

Again, I'm sure you'll consider this a copout, and perhaps it is, but I don't have the time to debate whether there is a God or whether He is the source of truth or right/wrong for us. Perhaps this forum is not for you. There are many other forums which seek to reach out to atheists with evidence of God's reality. I wish you the best.

Your Truly:

I do find it odd that you would pose the question then dismiss the answer, yes.

I have become too accustomed to ability to speak rationally to any issue and willingness to discuss the things he posts. He and I do not agree on much but I have learned a lot from him and trust his judgment because he thinks first and understands his opponent well. I acknowledge he is a rarity.

Since you and I cannot have such an honest dialogue with one another, I'll keep my yap shut on your posts hitherto.

I will say, though, that what troubles me most about people in general is that they are unwilling to even consider a point of view outside of their own cherished beliefs. Therefore, not only do they not understand the people around them, they don't even understand why what they believe to be true is (or isn't) valid. Hence, they never really grow. To my mind, there is nothing more blessed than to have your opinions and beliefs challenged because, in the end, those challenges wipe away the dross and leave only the pure gold behind (or reveal the material to be iron pyrite).

:::JC passes silently out of your life forever:::

Now, I give the guy full credit for still responding after I stated that I was sick of hearing the religious whine about how they are losing their religious freedoms, citing that the fact that they are able to whine in public is evidence that they aren't.

But I find it distressing that this leader in the church is not interested in answering the questions that need to be answered. These people just want to bitch and moan and feel persecuted.

I would literally pay money right now if anyone could find a Christian leader who would honestly debate "God is a prerequisite to morality" in a public forum with me or anyone else in our little community here. The sad thing is that I am no intellectual giant and even I could easily win that debate.

(BTW - thanks to whoever posted the Frans de Waal video.)

Beforelife or Afterlife?

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sat, 26 May 2012 11:09:09 PDT

By BP ~

Here's one for the critical thinkers. I swear I'll tie in religion at the end.

Dead=Not Alive; Therefore, Afterlife=Beforelife.

Soap bubble (Photo credit: Raphael Quinet)

In words now: I was not alive before I was alive and I'll be not alive after my death. So how can before life and after life be any different?

See I don't remember the before life b/c I did not have a brain then. I could not carry around this collection of data that we call memories in life. Nor would I have any need for them. They do not apply. How long was I not alive before I was alive? An hour, a day, an eternity? As far as I can remember it was an instant and an eternity all in one. There is no use for time when one is not alive. It is being alive that confines us to this space time continuum. A little like being trapped I guess. Separated from the truth that perhaps we once knew. When we were not alive.

I like to think of being alive as not too much unlike a bubble. All the necessary ingredients for the bubble were always there. However it takes some sort of outside input for the bubble to exist. The ingredients have to be combined in just the right way. Our body is like the shell that makes the bubble visible. Allows the bubble to exist. The way we understand it. The inside of the bubble would be like the soul I guess, or whatever it is that life is made of. Once the bubble is gone all the ingredients still remain. Maybe to be used in another bubble; maybe to be used on something completely different. I don't know. No one does. There is no proof for any theory. What I do know is that it's putting something out of place that makes the bubble. Think of air in water. The bubble fighting to get to the top. Think of a soap bubble just floating around ever so delicate. Much more wanting to pop than to remain a bubble. Everything is trying to reach equilibrium again. That's why the bubble pops and that's why we die. Being alive is not our natural state of being.

Well if that is true, and I can honestly say now that being NOT alive was not so bad, then what's so scary about being not alive again? Only the the physical act of dying? If one can accept that then there is nothing else to do, but to see our current state (being alive) as something like a journey. A vacation of sorts. A vacation from being not alive. So enjoy. We all know vacations don't last very long and for some reason when we are on them all we can think of is how we will eventually have to go back home.

Religions make us comfortable with this eventually having to go back thing. But you don't need 'em. It's like going to the beach on vacation just to see a psychologist for a week to try to deal with the thought of going back to work. It just doesn't make any sense. Enjoy life! Accept not knowing!

Fear and Loathing

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Wed, 23 May 2012 18:05:29 PDT

By John ~

HEBREWS 6: 4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The first time I read those words I became convinced it was speaking about me, and I was terrified.

It happened about 3 years ago, during a time I could only explain as my brief sojourn from sanity, into the world of uncertainty, doubt, fear, and misery that I now associate with religious belief.

I've always been slightly obsessive: a mixture of the passion to understand things and my high intelligence. It's both a blessing and a curse.

I first heard about Jesus when I was 6 years old from a babysitter at the prompting of my mother, concerned over my eternal well-being. She sat myself and my sister on the edge of my sister's bed and told us about how we were sinners and needed a Savior, and I accepted Jesus then and there.

Up until that point, I was a happy little kid atheist. Not by choice mind you, but by default. I had no concern over 'spiritual matters' and when I first heard about these things unseen my mind and emotions began their lifelong plummet into the world of uncertainty and fear.

For some unknown reason, the babysitter, I still remember her name: Thina, added as a suffix to our initial indoctrination the grave warning: 'if you challenge the devil, you will explode.'

I remember the next day or two of my weekend was ruined, as I sat on a bench in the park near my house ruminating over the possibility, afraid to death that if my resilience broke for even one moment and I said those words it would mean the end of my life.

Torture.

I quickly moved on, being the child I was, and forgot about it.

My young life was not very devout: my mother being a Christian and my father being a devout unbeliever we rarely went to church. When I was ten years old we moved to a new city for my father's new job.

At 13 and a new high school student, I remember vividly sitting on my bed reading the bible at night when that thought came back into my mind: 'if you challenge the devil you will explode.' Once more I was plunged into the vague world of religious uncertainty and doubt, ruminating day and night over the possibility I might at any moment lose my resolve and be forever shorn into millions of pieces of teenager-kibble. For weeks and months I prayed to God for strength, I used bible verses to 'send Satan away' such as: 'If God be for us, who can be against us' and 'All things are possible through Christ who strengthens us.' Little did I know the solution to my problems was to get rid of the religious thinking altogether. At the time, however, I could not risk my eternal soul at the utter joy of being safe from explosion over a religious loophole.

This might seem stupid to people, but understand I was a child when I first heard about this. This unknown realm of religious possibility was a mental reality for me since the age of 6, and it was impossible for me at the time to get out of it.

It took me about 18 months to get over it. One day after months and months of torture, I finally decided to face my fear and I finally challenged the devil out loud and...nothing happened. Cathartic. A temporary relief from the agony of obsession that I had been in the grips of for at least a year and a half, day and night, nonstop, 24 hours a day.

But that relief was short-lived. My mind soon found new religious things to obsess over. Demonic possession.

If I stopped believing, I was no longer saved and was at the risk of being possessed. So even though I knew certain things must be true about our reality, I held firm onto the notion that Christ died and was raised and that I was saved. That's all that mattered.

A growing pornography addiction and experimentation with marijuana grew at ages 16 and 17 and culminated in my true religious experience at the age of 17. After watching the 'Jesus' film and seeing this man nailed to a cross and for the first time realizing he 'died for ME' I broke down in shame over my problems as a human being, my lying and stealing and pornography and marijuana use, and asked him to forgive me. A rush of peace loving and forgiving spiritual water (only way I can describe it) flowed through me, and I became a Christian, again.

Shortly after I was baptized and when I went under the water something inside my heart 'leapt' at the recognition that this was me being saved, I was very happy for a time and I still have that feeling sometimes. The best way to describe it is a 'holy fire' in my heart. I don't know what it is, but that 'feeling' is probably the thing I have the most difficulty reconciling with my new found agnosticism or atheism.

Something kept me from going 'deep' into Christianity. I only ever put my toes in, because of this deep underlying fear at all things religious. I thought they were all very mystical and to be honest, extremely scary, and so I sort of kept my distance at becoming too indoctrinated into it. I don't think I could do it even if I wanted to. It's just too weird for me, and always was.

So having been saved and having that part of my life handled I went on to accomplish things in my life and did so for 10 years, constantly battling pornography addiction, trying to be clean in a relationship with my girlfriends and often denying them sex because of fear, battling my ongoing obsession with the potential for me to be possessed by constantly reinforcing that I was a child of God and such things were impossible as long as I had the holy spirit inside me.

That is, until about 3 years ago when I came across that verse. Terrified at having been a nominal christian for all these years and that I had 'fallen away, never to return' I began to research just what salvation really was. Much to my chagrin, I found 7 different interpretations of that verse and 2 Peter 2 from 7 different theologians, all saying different things. Some said I was never really saved. Some said I had lost my salvation. Some said I was still saved but 'backslidden.' Why wasn't there an answer? I ruminated in mental torture, watching YouTube videos from different pastors on salvation. I cried out to God for months, every night and day, in pure agony over the state of my eternal being.

not

really

there

at allAnd I received no answer.

The Christian counselor I saw thought I had some kind of demonic influence from the drugs I had taken as a teenager that was making me question my salvation. I stopped seeing him after he gave me a handbook on how to get rid of that. I never understood how drugs like anti-depressants and aspirin were OK for Christians to take but natural drugs like marijuana were not. Even though I didn't smoke marijuana and hadn't in almost a decade, I could not reconcile this. It just doesn't make sense.

I thought I had finally gotten an answer from God, at the pinnacle of my mental fury he had shown me that God did all the work and that all I needed to do was have faith and I was saved. But how did I know my faith was enough? I heard different pastors saying that God gave YOU the faith to believe, and I felt like I didn't really believe it, otherwise I would have developed more 'fruits' over the past years. Was I never really saved in the first place? Was I in danger?

And to be honest this is very hard for me to write. That know of complete terror rises once again inside my heart as I force myself to tell my story here.

How did Jesus' death save us at all? One pastor on youtube said it was god's wrath poured out on him instead of us that saved us. So then, why need him to die that way at all? One said it was his death. Well, how does one day of torture forgive someone who tortured someone else for 20 years, like the father who kept his daughter in the basement as a slave? How does Jesus' resurrection mean anything at all? It just didn't make sense.

Desperate for an answer I cried out to God, and received nothing. And after a long time I was forced to admit the possibility that he was

not

really

there

at all.

I began to delve into atheist literature, and every bit of it made intellectual sense to me. Evolution is actually true. It's not possible to reconcile the evolution of man with mankind's fall in the bible, because evolution is dependent on selection pressures, and those include being tougher, smarter, more logical, and in human beings' case: more social and more moral for success. Mankind was not created perfect and chose to fall (the whole fall in Genesis is a confidence trick anyway), mankind evolved these things. He could not have been successful if he didn't.

I still bounce between atheism and agnosticism. I still have bursts of religiosity and bursts of fear and terror over religious thoughts. I know there are a lot of Christians in the same boat as me. It truly is horrifying stuff.

I began to see most religious people very ignorant of reality in order to hold on to beliefs, either because they must hold on to those beliefs being true because they are afraid, or holding on to those beliefs because they desperately want them to be true.

And to be honest, part of me wishes they were true as well. The thought of a loving God and me being together forever and me living forever is a nice thought. The gospel story is still an amazingly beautiful one.

But so is Santa Claus.

12 Step Recovery from Christianity

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Wed, 23 May 2012 17:54:46 PDT

By an Alabamian ~

I admit that I am powerless to change the fact that I have been Christian for a good part of my life.

I realize that I have within me the power to free myself from the harmful part of my Christian past and that I am no longer bound by promises or covenants which I was induced to make based on the false promises of Christianity.

I make to myself a firm promise to listen in the future only to reason, rationality, and factual evidence in making decisions about how I should live my life, rejecting all emotional appeals, guilt-inducing threats, myths, pretty stories, promises of castles in the air, and superstition.

I make a searching and fearless moral and intellectual inventory of myself with the purpose of recognizing in myself those weaknesses which induced me to remain Christian for so long.

I am able to list the specific reasons why I can no longer be Christian.

I make the decision to do what is right, and to accept whatever the consequences may be for acknowledging the lies and living accordingly.

I begin working through each of my Christianity-related problems of mind, body, and relationships.

I make a list of those for whom it would be important to know of my decision and the changes I am making in my life, and prepare myself emotionally to discuss my decision with them all, realizing that many may react with hurt, anger, emotional outbursts, or other unpleasantness.

I discuss my decision with them (except in those cases where I think it would cause greater harm to do so than not) in a calm, friendly and loving way, without argument.

I continue to take personal inventory, and where I find artifacts of Christianity, I carefully consider whether they should continue to be a part of my life, or whether I should discard them.

I seek out truth wherever I can find it.

Having had an awakening and renewal as the result of these steps, I try to be helpful to other recovering or doubting Christians, and to practice these principles in all of my affairs.

My Journey towards the truth without the bonds of the lies

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sun, 27 May 2012 04:43:33 PDT

By Jeff Rohde ~

It has been an extremely long journey to get to where I am now and even though my destination is well in sight, I still feel there is more to be done and that is something I am working on at this time. There is no reason to mention the project I am working on right now because an idea is only an idea until you put that idea into motion and end with a result that not only satisfies yourself, but everyone else you intend to share it with. My project is in motion, it just does not have an end to date. Now, I do not intend on boring anyone reading this with meticulous events or useless babble, so I will be as brief as humanly possible as I present my testimonial for I assume many of you who reading this will already understand the missing parts.

Agnostic (Photo credit: las - initially)

I was born in the heart of the "Bible Belt" in 1970 to Christian parents. My parents and family referred to themselves as Baptists, so that is what I believed my destiny to be also. I got saved and Baptized in 1979. I believe it was sometime around the year 1987 when, even though still proud to be a Christian, I had questions. Something about the whole story did not settle well in my stomach. I remember thinking that something about all of this just simply did not make sense. After asking a few questions and getting the all so common answer of, "we should not question the Bible" or "do not look too deep into something that only requires faith," it started to hit me that I might be on to something. I wondered if there might just be something they are not telling me, so I decided to figure it out for myself.

I did not start right away on my journey. I had to pack for it first and that did take some time. Around the year 1998, I read the Bible cover to cover for the first time. I felt more confused than I had before I had read it, so I read again a few years later. Still nothing. I read it again for the third time in 2008. Still nothing. I decided in 2009 to take a break from a forth reading. I decided to start reading everything I could get my hands on dealing with the Bible and religion as a whole. I read a book by Bart D. Erhman and if you do not know who he is or have not read any of his books, you must do so as soon as possible. It literally changed my life. Dr. Erhman PhD went to Moody Bible College. He graduated from Wheaton college and completed his Masters of Divinity at Princeton Seminary. Bart can read Hebrew, Greek, Coptic, Latin, German and French. He is a true Biblical scholar and even though he went down this road as a Christian, he walked away an Agnostic.

I am not a prisoner to the lies of Christianity.Now, I want to state this so that you will better understand my passion. I will be 42 years old in June. I have been divorced for seven years. I am currently single, have no children and have a good job. My point is that I have free time to do whatever I want. After reading three of Bart's books, which mainly deal with the problems in the Bible, I read the Bible again for the fourth time. It blew me away. There are not a few problems in the Bible nor hundreds, there are literally thousands of problems in the Bible. I could give you one problem in the Bible everyday for the next ten years! You cannot see them if you are not looking for them, but when you know about them, they are everywhere! In the last two years, I have read over 70 books dealing with everything from Reincarnation to NDE's, OBE's, life after death, books for Christianity and books against it. I have read about the history of Christianity and much about other religions. I listen to books at work, research for hours on my computer and watch everything I can about religion on television. This is my drug if you will and I do not care, I love it. I do not believe it anymore, but I am fascinated to the core as to how almost everyone else is. I am still on the fence as to whether it is outright brainwashing or how one is raised or if it has to do with a fear of Hell, the unknown or just simply the absence of an open mind. Like I said, my journey has been long, but it is not over.

In conclusion. I stated a year ago that I am Agnostic to most of my friends and family. I do not believe that the Bible is the word of God nor do I believe it was inspired by God. It was written by men, men who had agenda's and thoughts about the way they believed the story was supposed to mean. As an Agnostic, I must honestly say that when it comes to everything, I just simply do not know. I have thoughts and theories, but at the end of day, I am not completely sure about any of them. I do, technically, consider myself an Agnostic Theist who believes in Reincarnation, but Agnostic is easier. I am not a Biblical Scholar, but I am happy to discuss Religion or any other related topic with anyone at anytime. My goal is not to figure all this out because that is not going to happen. I just enjoy learning. When you grow up in the "Bible Belt" and leave Christianity and Pastor Bob, friends or family want to know why, it is nice to have an intelligent answer. Leaving Christianity was not easy, but I now wake up every day feeling secure in knowing that even though I do not know, I am not a prisoner to the lies of Christianity.

The Hindu Roots of Worship Music

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sat, 26 May 2012 11:19:57 PDT

By Danimal ~

Perhaps my largest objections to the organized church is its music. Hymnbooks have been largely discarded in many churches in favor of "praise and worship" or simply "worship" music. The music and lyrics are simple, easily reproduced by any "worship team" with minimal talent. Unfortunately, the lyrics are often bereft of meaning and frequently repetitive. Consider the lyrics of this song:

This is the air I breathe.
This is the air I breathe.
Your holy presence living in me.
And I, I'm desperate for you.
And I, I'm desperate for you.

If you are like me, you are mystified by these words. Picture singing them six or seven times in a row. Worshippers will always have their eyes closed and maybe their hands raised. They often describe their minds as empty during these songs.

To a person with Aspergers syndrome or "Aspie" such music can be sheer torture. Because I am a highly visual thinker, I am unable to form pictures of worship music. In short, my thinking process stops, and I quickly become very anxious and even frightened.
However, I doubt most Christians realize how much Hinduism has permeated the church. In Hindu meditation repetitive phrases intended to empty the mind is called "mantra". Christian musicians have adopted this technique, and the sheep can't seem to get enough of it. I find the music phase of a church service to be highly contrived in order to manipulate emotions and attitudes.

I find it difficult to believe that a rational god would enjoy such music. However, we aren't dealing with a rational deity. I remember being severely criticized for not wanting to listen to christian music or keeping my car radio tuned to K-Love. Far better to tune to public radio or listen to some excellent pieces by Beethoven.

I wiggle my ears for your comments.

Critical thinking

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sat, 26 May 2012 11:08:01 PDT

By Brian Kellogg ~

This is where the rubber meets the road for me. When I was a christian a few years back I remember teaching on hermeneutics and critical thinking at church. I brought up an example of a current christian conspiracy theory and that is where I lost the class. I had another parishioner approach me at the end of another class very emotional saying that I could not say she was wrong on how she interpreted a certain scripture due to her own personal revelation. It is an untouchable belief among many Christians that verses can have multiple "hidden" meanings. Scripture is fluid, but the same will hold to a completely unyielding strict interpretation of our US constitution. A little hypocritical me thinks.

There are no symbols that represent skepticism. This is one symbol that can be used to represent skepticism, skeptical inquiry, critical thinking, critical inquiry, and truth-seeking. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

It is this hyper-subjectivity that causes Christians, in part, to believe the myths of the bible so completely and also to accept so readily any other conspiracy theory or other unfounded belief that fits into their world view; conspiracy of atheistic scientists, Obama birth certificate, antichrist, one world order, mark of the beast, tribulation, the Illuminati, demonic backwards messages in rock songs, and on and on ...

Christians will often use the the phrase "I feel" when describing why they believe. This is the argument from personal experience. I led worship for close to two decades in charismatic churches. Subsequently I am very familiar with the altered states of mind music can help evoke; I quite enjoy them as a mater of fact. Christians often mistake this for "feeling the presence of god". If a person from another religion were to use the same reasoning when arguing with a christian they would be immediately dismissed as the christian would view their own experience as unquestionably superior. The non-christian's experience is obviously not of god and at worse demonic. Why, on what demonstrable basis? Well the unquestionable truth of the bible verified by the Christian's personal experience. It is all hyper-subjective smoke and mirrors. I've experienced the same god feelings listening to secular music that, yes, touches my soul. Should I now consider the Goo Goo Dolls an oracle of god? City of Angels, what an incredible song.

What if I started a religion based on a man-god that will come from a place called Krypton that will save us from ourselves? There's documentation floating around about this man-god and video evidence as well. I would be laughed at and rightly so. What is it that gives Christianity such a pass as its claims are far more spurious? Some of it comes down to culture. We grow up with it. We are taught it by people we love and trust implicitly as very impressionable children. Thus we are culturally anesthetized to giving too much critical thought to the validity of its incredible supernatural claims. Then add to this the teaching that reason must be subservient to faith, we now have a cocktail (cool-aid) to delude the masses with.

One of the hardest lessons I had to learn growing up was that adults could be very wrong and did not always have others' best interests in mind. I remember being absolutely shocked on many occasions by the lack of reasoning that so many I admired from a young age showed in much of what they would accept as true. Something must be wrong with me, right? I thought this for years. The inner tumult caused by the intellectual dissonance was unbearable. Letting go what was already gone, though difficult, was the most mentally and emotionally freeing event of my life. My hope is that others would find such surreal release and begin to dream again.

Christian Universalism Hitchslapped

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Wed, 23 May 2012 18:11:45 PDT

By Alex ~

Forgive me for the title. I couldn't help but think of Christopher Hitchens whilst writing this. If only he did a commentary on this doctrine when he was alive. I am writing this piece on the fallacies of Christian Universalism and the flaws that those still within Christendom fail to acknowledge. It didn’t take long for me to apply my critical thinking skills to come up with these points. I tend to break down and analyse everything logistically. Whilst Universalism sounds great on the outside, a few neurons connecting should paint a different story. Let me know what you think about them.

1. Length of an Age:

In 2 Peter 2 4-5 is this passage:

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment;

And in 2 Peter 2 9: 9

if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

And Peter 3 18-20:

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

The fallacy here is the amount of time people have been held in Hades/Hell for. The counterargument is always ‘It’s only temporary, not eternal.’ That isn’t the point here. Who deserves to be held for thousands of years until a final judgement? What benefit does that serve for the people in there if you’re claiming to be advocates of rehabilitative justice? Another counterargument often used is that Hades is outside our current scope of time. Chronos is the Greek word for clock time. Kairos is the Greek word for time in general e.g. ‘Time is at hand’. This gives Universalists a lot of scope to refer to those in Hades as outside our temporal Chronos (clock time), therefore time has no meaning to those not in Heaven.

2. Soul Sleep in relation to Universalism:

In light of the passages above and Paul in 2 Corinthians 5-8:

“We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”

The idea of soul sleep is put to bed pardon the pub. Yet apparently to the majority of Universalists, we sleep until the Final Judgement. Now tell me, if everyone rose up together from the dead in one go, wouldn’t you be confused, frightened and wondering what was going on around you? Imagine all those great grandchildren, great, great grandchildren and so on and you’re there thinking, ‘who are these people?” See my point? Furthermore, the thief on the cross with Jesus was told that he would be in Paradise. Soul Sleep advocates argue that there is a comma in there, yet the original manuscripts show no such grammar. The thief wasn’t going to be dumped in some place for millennia until the Resurrection.

3. Jonah, Saul to Paul:

What do these two folk have in common? Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a whale, and according to the man himself, it felt like eternity. Nevertheless, Jonah cried for repentance and his experience ended. Saul encountered Jesus whilst traveling. He hated Jesus and wanted to kill his followers. Yet here is another example of a small period of time which it took for a person to transform their personality. Yet, let me take you back to fallacy number 1, where the length of an age seems to transpire over thousands of years. Not fair really is it? And imagine how those trapped souls must’ve felt as all those years passed by. Jonah’s time in the whale’s belly seems like no time at all now.

A Christmas Carol should be an example pointed out to those advocating such large spans of time. There was also an episode in Star Trek Deep Space Nine called 'Hard Time' where Chief O'Brien is in prison for twenty years, yet it was only a device created to give the illusion. He'd only been gone 2 hours.

4. Near Death Experiences:

Although many can be explained by noradrenalin, lack of oxygen etc, there are a few cases which for some, cannot be dismissed just yet. Many fundamentalist circles argue that Satan is appearing to non-Christians as an angel, unless it involves the traditional fire and brimstone scenario, then it must be true. However, with many people being changed for the better after NDE’s, doesn’t this suggest judgement and purification occurs after death if we take the accounts as truth? What then happens to the Bible passages in the Book of Peter? Anyway, while I’m at it, why are so many NDE accounts of people involve them being alone? I’d want a deceased relative there, not some ball of light making me feel loved.

So, what would I do in God’s position? I’d judge each person the moment they die and according to their needs without the concept of time thrown in e.g. A Christmas Carol style. Minimal time lost, judgement is righteous and just. Very efficient too and everyone is ultimately saved.

Unfortunately, Christendom doesn’t offer that route as much as it claims by those who follow it say it does.

The Prey

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sun, 27 May 2012 04:45:17 PDT

By Lillian ~

This weekend, I got in my car and made the 5-hour trip to see a friend that I have had since college. Our lives have diverged a great deal. Anna has had a hard life, failed marriages, money problems, alcohol and drugs...but she is my friend, nonetheless.

A brother is all that remains of her family. When I arrived at her house she was drunk. We talked as we usually do and I heard the same things I have been hearing for years. This time she spoke of her 'Pastor'. "What pastor?" I asked. "You're Jewish!"

Ans so began her story of her being accepted into a Church and being baptized. She told me we needed to worry about the afterlife and the prophecies of the Bible.

Armed with my new Ex-Christian strength, I asked her why was she doing this. And she said, "I want a family. I want a eulogy when I die. I have a lot to offer a Church". I didn't know what to say. She is so very alone and this Church is 'taking her in'.

Who am I to judge her? I did my best to warn her. I wish she could have found a family with AA rather than this.

Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing...

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sun, 27 May 2012 04:44:06 PDT

By Tania ~

I love the words of the old hymn “Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing.” I've loved them for a long time. Last year, as I began having these “challenges in my faith” and experiencing “a difficult time with God,” I'd listen to the words of this song, write them out, stick them on the fridge or the mirror – a sort of reassurance, an encouragement to keep trying with God. Now, as I listen to them, I realize I haven't left God, but rather that God (or at least the God I used to believe in) is not there.

come thou fount (Photo credit: J. McPherskesen)

I have not “wandered,” as into some questionable lifestyle or as though I've “forgotten” about Him and placed all kinds of other things ahead of Him. No, it's not like that. I've learned that for most of us “de-converteds,” it's not like that. We've researched, dug deep into books and our minds, exhausted ourselves praying and reasoning and wishing. We've stood in church, unable to sing along with certain songs or verses of songs, because we no longer believe what they're about. We've been unable to open our Bibles, because when we do, the cynicism and skepticism we have makes it too difficult. We've received those well-meaning emails from family and friends who say they're praying for us - that our faith would be restored, that we'd find good Christian friends, that we'd “just believe.” And over and over, we've thought to ourselves, “It's just not that simple.” And...we've realized that life does in fact go on. All is not bad, all is not lost.

We've found strength in new places, we've found value in other things. Life is still beautiful – much of it is unpleasant and painful and just downright awful, but there is still some beauty, hope, purpose. Much of it doesn't make sense, and there seem to be more questions. We've likely discovered new depths of mystery and perhaps come to realize, slowly, surprisingly, that the unanswerable questions have, in fact, enriched our lives. And there are still some parts of those songs that we can sing along with....

Come, Thou Fount of every blessing,

Tune my heart to sing Thy grace;

(God, if You're there, You are a God of grace, a God who understands my disbelief, who knows where I'm coming from. You honour my effort, You see in my love - towards other people, towards life, to all that is good - that I would love You, too, if I could believe in You just a bit....)

Streams of mercy, never ceasing,

Call for songs of loudest praise.

(I do praise You, God – rather, I would, if I could. This world, this life, is amazing, incomprehensible, and I do believe that loudest praises could be given for all that is.)

Teach me some melodious sonnet,

(I'm willing to learn, God; if there's something I need to learn, teach it to me.)

Sung by flaming tongues above;

Praise His name, I'm fixed upon it -

Name of God's redeeming love.

O to grace how great a debtor

Daily I'm constrained to be!

Let Thy goodness, like a fetter,

Bind my wandering heart to Thee:

(It certainly makes more sense to bind my heart to You and to all that is right and pure and good...it's just that, right now, it's too difficult to bring my heart to You, never mind bind it to You.)

Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,

Prone to leave the God I love;

Here's my heart, O take and seal it;

Seal it for Thy courts above

(Yes, God, take my heart, seal it, for worthy efforts, for bigger purposes, for all that is not “me.” Let me remember my place, my smallness. Let me be filled with humility, with wonder and awe, let me live and love fully...and when those courts appear, when I am to give account for all I have or have not done in this life, let me be ready for whatever happens next.)

-from “Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing” by Robert Robinson

Secular reasoning and christian apologetic suicide

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sun, 27 May 2012 04:44:06 PDT

By Brian Kellogg ~

Christian apologist Dr. William Lane Craig often uses the argument from personal experience in an effort to prove his god.

Craig says (in his own words):

The way in which I know Christianity is true is first and foremost is the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart. And this gives me self-authenticating means of knowing Christianity is true wholly apart from the evidence. And therefore, even if in some historically contingent circumstances the evidence that I have available to me should turn against Christianity, I do not think that controverts the witness of the Holy Spirit."

This argument is obviously inept, but we will go into it somewhat. If Dr. Craig would affirm this argument's validity then he must also be willing to allow all other religions to offer such evidence as well. I do not believe he would accept this due to the exclusivity that Christianity demands. This tool of argumentation only helps to underscore the weakness of Dr. Craig's argument as a whole. At the end of the day Christianity is based on faith. The bible is explicit on this point. His use of this argument therefore reinforces the absolute subjectivity required to accept the myriad of bronze age myths found in Christianity's holy book as true. I along with Hitchens wish christian apologists would just concede this obvious point and be done with it.

The anthropological argument argues for the existence of god due to the need for moral absolutes and the fact that most are born with an innate knowledge of basic right and wrong. Wanting a prime mover in order to communicate moral absolutes to us does not magically make such a prime mover exist. The wanting does not necessitate the needing. We often hear from christians that god must exist otherwise nothing is evil and everything is permissible. If there are no absolutes then whoever holds power creates the absolutes. This is the argument I often made as a christian. An honest review of history shows that it is those holding and wielding power that have determined what is and is not allowable and this is undeniably self evident. Wanting an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent god to tell us right from wrong only moves this problem up to an intolerable level. At least when there are humans in power that hurt and oppress their people those in power can hopefully be overthrown. If it is a god doing this then we are to be supremely pitied.

Looking at morals as an evolutionary result, still in process thankfully, of a social species is quite natural and obvious from a secular perspective. As we can see this evolutionary process produces socially acceptable behavior, but also causes us to distrust those that are outsiders and/or much different than those in our social circle. This is far more likely and preferable in my humble opinion.

How Religion Poisoned My Life

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Wed, 23 May 2012 18:12:07 PDT

By RickRay ~

Some would say I was exaggerating things with my title, “How Religion Poisoned My Life”. I've read a lot of stories from ex-Christian.net and most of them come from people in the U.S. Those stories really have shown how religion poisons people's lives. So, my story could be quite insignificant to a lot of people compared to some of those horror stories. As a Canadian I never thought people in my country were quite as crazy religious as fundamentalists in America.

I grew up around French Catholics who weren't much on church going, except for my grandmother who was probably the most religious of the bunch. My mom didn't have much use for the Catholic educational system and its religion as I remember her telling me horror stories about how the nuns treated her in school. She sent me to go to a public school system so I wouldn't be exposed to that kind of abuse. Glad she did! I remember my grandmother taking me to church a few times, but since it was all in French and mom sent me to an English school, I didn't really know what was going on, nor did I care. Granny had me say prayers whenever I stayed over at her place but it was more like memory work that had no real meaning to it. I said them just to please her because she was a wonderful lady who loved me and was there for me. My mom and step-dad were always fighting and I remember leaving in the middle of the night walking down the street playing my harmonica on my way to stay over at my grandmother's house, it was sanctuary for me.

As I got older religion didn't play a serious part of my life. I remember having been baptized and going for my communion and foolishness like that. My grandmother was the one who suggested I become a teacher after I graduated high school and I thought that was a good idea since I did like children. I married my first wife at age 25, she was atheist and things were great. I worked tremendously hard to try and make her happy and create a good life for us. But, you know how things go, she just wasn't happy! I was very much in love with her and tried to commit suicide by taking an overdose of pills but I guess it wasn't my time, or I just fucked up and was looking for attention. You know, the old self-pity story.

Along comes the second wife who was a single mother with a little boy who was 5 years old. He was really spoiled and I tried to get him to behave better, but you know mothers, their children can do no wrong. Funny, I also came from a single mother and the same attitude prevailed in that situation. I was bilingual but was more English than French whereas she was really French. Somehow, French culture and English culture worldviews just don't mix. She had never really shown any interest in religion, even though her mother was super religious. It wasn't til about 7 or 8 years into the marriage that she started showing interest in going to church and following the Catholic religion. I played along thinking that she'd get it out of her system after awhile. Wrong! She was on her way to some holy spirited life. She was getting kind of psychotic and nothing I ever did was good enough for her. I told her if she wanted to go to college and university to become a teacher I would pay for it and support her through it.

The summer she graduated from a French Teacher's College, she told me to get lost. At the time we had her son who I had adopted and given my name to who was now 16, and my younger biological son who was 8. She decided that spring that she, her sister, our kids and her sisters 2 kids would go for a trip out east and be back in 3 weeks. She told me she wanted me out of the house when she got back. Go figure, after everything I did for her!

When they returned from the trip I had found an apartment a block away from the house so I could be close to the kids and maybe she would have thought about getting back together. She told me she had planned this and didn't want me around. I'm sure her sister helped make that decision.

She wanted a divorce and didn't want to go to counseling that I had suggested. She just kept putting me down and saying nasty things. Anyway, not long after I moved to a place of my own I discovered she was having all kinds of mental problems. She was ripe for the picking! Along came the evangelicals. They snagged her, hook, line and sinker, and that's where she's at today, 17 years later.

I became very bitter and just wanted my biological son with me who eventually came to live with me when he started high school. She kind of lost it after that and would pop over to my place every once in awhile proselytizing and telling me god was the most important thing in her life. I asked why the kids were not the most important thing in her life. But, she kept on blabbing about how god would take care of everything. On one hand she would say she missed going to the cottage and on the other hand turn around and tell me she was going to go after my pension but it would cost her $15000 to get out of our divorce agreement. She was definitely going through a rough time but couldn't bring herself around to asking me if I wanted to get back with her. I wouldn't have anyway, because she had already persuaded me one summer to go and live with my brother for a couple months so she could have some alone time. That should have been a signal to me back then.

I did manage to get back into a relationship with my adopted son, but he had decided to go back to taking her last name. I always wondered what kind of horrible things she must have told him to make him want to do that. Weird, but that's exactly what my mother did to me with my step-dad. Gave me his name then when I was 16 she changed my name back to hers! Weird, coincidental , or what? I know my mother was a mental case from the way she treated my step-dad with disrespect and disdain but I knew she loved me and wanted the best for me, but at least she stuck it out with him, although I don't know how he did it. They both died about 4 months apart from each other from lung cancer as they were both heavy smokers. Somehow age 59 and 62 don't seem to be very old. But I digress.

My younger son got married to a wonderful Canadian Sikh girl whose a teacher and they're both moving to Australia for awhile. By the way, they're both freethinkers. My adopted son is still closer to his mom and is somewhat religious but not extreme like his mother. I'm 63, living alone with my cat, belong to a Humanist group and have a freethinking, humanist, atheist best friend. I've been retired from teaching for 10 years and I'm at a point in my life where I don't think I can live with anyone as we tend to get set in our ways. As long as we have special friends who accept you for who you are and share most of the same worldview, then life isn't so bad. The biggest regret is the effect that divorce has on children and the long term effects. With a 40% to 50% divorce rate I could not stand having to go through that kind of pain and monetary suffering ever again Perhaps some of us are destined to live alone. With all the atheist blogs and documentaries that show the damage religion does to society and what it's done in the past, it still boggles my mind that people don't take the time to scrutinize the religion they believe in. I say, “Question everything.” “Accept nothing without evidence.” “Use every atom of critical thinking skills you have to disprove ancient dogmas” and be the best person you can by simply following “The Golden Rule”.

Growing in strength as an ex believer

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Wed, 23 May 2012 18:12:07 PDT

By Irish Mark ~

I suppose, I started to get really angry with god 3 years ago around this time, as It was the end of my first year in collage, I actually remember one particular day this time 3 years back, when I was in Dublin where I studied. I had totally isolated myself and was in the park alone.

My story would begin by telling you that I became a Christian when I was 15 and my mother brought my to a summer camp, Thinking back I didn't want to go, I didn't want to know any thing about Christianity and what she had said to me as their was a chance we would not be able to go, was "If the opportunity arises for us to go Its Gods will for you to be there".

Now this was my summer as a new Christian, this camp was for only one week, It was a conference, take a 15yr old adolescence, away for a week with no-body he knows and people there offer you there friendship because they think you are a Christian So I went along with it, played the part and started to talk the talk on the 3Rd day, waving my hand to the worship music, It was at the end of that particular meeting that a group of youths from a church in a town 20mins from where I lived came up and talked to me, and they did so because they saw me raising my hand in the meeting and thought I was a Christian so I decided to give a shot at walking the walk.

After camp I remember my best friend at home noticed straight away how different I was, and come every Friday I was "back" being one of the lads, and then there was youth meeting Saturday and church Sunday, Going to the church where the guys at the conference went, and this repeated itself all summer until at the end of the summer there was a Christian youth camp and basically after this it kept me going until youth camp at October where I met my first real girlfriend, and we would talk on the phone every day after camp for god knows how long, the following summer we broke up because I got stupidly jealous.

Anyway after that summer It was my final year in school and things got really really though for me as my mother decided to stop going to the church 20 mins away and Basically looking back this was the beginning of the self imploding time-bomb. I got really locked up in the bible and god, became "Super-Christian" and there was no-one around to tell me differently, would go months at a time without seeing another Christian. And this is when I started talking to God all of the time. It would take me half hour to get to school and half hour back, my 45 Min lunch break I would just talk to god, all of the time, and my one major prayer was that I would do well enough in school and that the finances would be there for me to go to a collage in Dublin. Why Dublin, well this is where 2 of the guys that were in the church 20mins away went, (not the same college just Dublin) lived. Also 5 girls and 1 guy that I was friends with and another good friend of mine was going to go there lived. So your talking 9 people. These were people I considered good friends of mine, people I would talk to at least once a week, and text more often. And believe it or not, My mother did not want me to go to Dublin, and I used the same line to her that she used on me about conference I told her "If I end up there Its Gods will" and believe it or not it was a night-mare, I started that collage in September and finished it may 2009 roughly this date. (Th) And When I left I left bitter, full of anger, full of Pain, let-down, feeling disappointed, not just towards these people but also towards the church I attended with happened to be one of my friends' dads church. He was the pastor. then come June I bugged off to south Africa (still being a Christian) to volunteer in an orphanage for 3 months in Cape town. as God had told me to do this in February. and that was where I just lost it all together, I remember being at the orphanage so hung over I was still drunk, I just couldn't cope or understand why God would tell me to go there, when I ended up feeling so alone and isolate over there, worse than I had in Dublin, I actually remember physically shaking from anxiety and everything. and That was 3 years ago.

And I don't know how other people coped with loosing their faith, When I returned home about a month later I went to the UK to further my study and ended up drinking most days when I was not in college and would even drink on a Tuesday in collage as it was a lecture, I even went to a few churchs over there but the way people talk to you if you tell them that you used to be a Christian saying "that's not possible, you were never a Christian if you stopped" and funny enough that is something I said as a Christian. I even joined a mosque for around 2 months (actually got me off the drink for awhile) I was bouncing around like an out of control ping pong ball that when you try to catch a hold of it, it just starts bouncing even more.

But to come to an end, I'v finally come to my own conclusion, Could do to be with age as-well and turning 22 officially a grown up. Whatever reason people turn to religion for or become religious, everyone has there own reasons, and I am not ashamed to say that I did it because I didn't have many friends and there were people who wanted to be my friend because they thought I was a Christian so I played along. It finally took control of me and I was a Christian because I thought I was special and I was happy doing that. The same people I became a Christian to make friends with, there expectations became my expectations. When I ended up in Dublin, To be among these people I saw that they were not living up to my expectations, witch were my expectations because they were once there own expectations witch made the sting hurt that bit more. and I'm going to end this by telling you something my dad said to me (parents been divorced for years mum Christian dad not) He said to me a good while ago but it makes sense. "Mark maybe god told you to go to South Africa to show you That all this born again Christian stuff is not what he wants for you"

Letters From Camp

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Wed, 23 May 2012 18:12:27 PDT

By Lauren Tyree ~

I've been an ex-Christian for a year now. I like to express my reflections on apostasy through poetry. This poem is written from the perspective of the faith community that I left behind. I picture the residents in a prison camp of the psyche, reaching out to the one who got away.

LETTERS FROM CAMP

we’re sad that you’ve gone

and we all say hello

with each passing dawn

we miss you more so

————-

our Leader sends love

from His heart to yours

with peace like a dove

He keeps us indoors

————-

(so what’s the air like

outside these walls?

how gray is the sky?

how thick is the fog?)

————-

we hope that you’re well

wherever you are

we really can’t tell

you’ve traveled too far

————

it’s cozy in here

we’re safe from the storm

there’s no need to fear

His grace is so warm

————

(see how quickly that limb

snaps under your feet!

see, you’re helping us trim

the chaff from the wheat!)

————

one day you’ll get cold

and come back inside

the end was foretold

so why even try?

Pull The Darn Tooth

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Mon, 21 May 2012 17:18:24 PDT

By Andrea ~

I remember when I was in third grade. I had a ridiculous fear of pulling out my baby teeth.I had one hanging by a string one time and I left it there all day.I don't know what I thought would happen...I probably saw one of my friends lose their tooth, and bleed a lot,and it scared me.I remember my tooth was so far out of my gum that it was just hanging by my lip,but I still wouldn't touch it.I said it was fine just the way it was,even though it hurt my lip.Finally I pulled it out because I was going to birthday party and I didn't want the other kids to think I was weird.Haha it was all pretty silly. Obviously I grew up pretty quick and got over that.But what if I never did?What if I left it there for weeks?I probably would have gotten an infection and looked pretty silly to everyone.

Tooth Pull Humour in Wild West Zone of Port Aventura, Salou, Spain. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

I bring this up because it reminds me of how so many people don't take the step to ''grow up'',even when religion is the thing that's damaging you.I started thinking a lot about this today because I was on twitter and looking at the trending topics.One of them said ''BeingMuslimMeans''...and then people put all these reasons why being Muslim means a great thing to them.I was shocked at how much they can deny the damage done by THEIR religion!Actually it shouldn't shock me by now, because I see it all the time..but it still does. I felt myself going into this rage because they have this ridiculous attitude.This attitude that,in all the thousand something years it's been around,Islam has never even given someone a scratch.It's all sunshine and smiles.

I guess it's a trend now, to act like that, because all Abrahamic religions are ridiculously outdated. They like to pretend it can be modern..even though it's barbaric at it's core. It seems like the favorite excuse to make is,''Well my holy book isn't really inspiring all those horrible things.There's no horrible advice in there. If you come away with that..you must be evil or reading it wrong.'' One girl I saw on twitter said ''Not all of us blow up buildings you know?'' Her snark was not cute!So it's that simple huh?You have a nice clean book and then people still come away with destructive ideas,for no reason really?Uh huh..because when you subscribe to a good magazine...and start reading it.. you suddenly get this renewed passion to blow something up. Right?

Christians have the same attitude.''Not all of us hate gays you know!'' I think the bottom line is that they know hate is wrong, so they try to pretend it's not part of their religion.But denial never helped anything that I know of.You can bow down and pretend that Islam is wonderful..but the truth is that it's brainwashed millions to kill millions.They must not know about the massive genocide against Hindus,that took place over a few hundred years.Christians act like their religion only inspired people to cuddle kittens or something. Take something like the Salem Witch Trials. What were those people following?They were following Old Testament law that says to kill anyone who seems suspicious of being a witch.There's no way around it.. those religions are ugly and barbaric, and they are going to keep inspiring vulnerable people to do ugly things.As long as they are around..something ugly will come from it.

They might think ''Well all I do is go to a nice church and I don't do anything destructive or hurtful.'' Don't you wish they would realize their denial is what's hurting things? I mean what a crazy world..they don't see that their religion is the problem! They may not hate people themselves..but they let hate go on by refusing to see where it comes from. Some of them say,''I love Jesus. I worship the Bible.And I want to stop extreme groups, who hurt gays and oppress woman.'' It's like,I hate to burst your bubble..but do you realize those oppressive people got those ideas from the BIBLE?!

I don't know about you..but I've never seen someone come up with 2,000 year old ideas on their own.No one now was alive 2,000 years ago...if we didn't read an ancient book then those ancient ideas would be foreign to us. It's just sad because we're never going to get anywhere until we realize those books are what breed a lot insane ideas.If they want to stop gay hate or terrorism..they first thing they need to do is stop worshiping a book that promotes it to ignorant people!It's hard to let go of old ideas but I think we have to..otherwise we're no better than a third grader who denies that they ever have to pull out an old tooth.

Intellectual intolerance

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Mon, 21 May 2012 17:18:24 PDT

By theFlakes (a.k.a. Brian Kellogg) ~

"We know that reason is the devil's harlot, and can do nothing but slander and harm all that god says and does." - Martin Luther

Dr. Martin Luther's Church Door - Wittenburg, Germany '93 (Photo credit: Mikey G Ottawa)

This is a quote from a man that I used to admire until I learned more about him and the incredible amount of ridiculous rhetoric that spewed forth from his mouth. This quote entirely encapsulates the christian evangelical fundamentalist view on the human intellect. Why do many who study in higher education institutions leave christianity or at the least only pay it lip service? I think the answer to that is quite self evident. It is not due to the indoctrination forced upon students at higher ed institutions. Many of those students have already received enough indoctrination growing up in their christian homes. No, the truth of what many learn in college sheds honest illumination on the beliefs and religious fears drilled into them in childhood. This is why in christian evangelical fundamentalist circles we see such a disdain for those educated in religious studies, philosophy, and other disciplines who dare write or say anything that would challenge their world view. After all these silly PHDs don't have the spirit like they do. All the PHDs have is the knowledge that they worship. It's the devil influencing them; come-on its all so obvious to us enlightened special few. This is vanity and foolishness.

Five years ago I would have been numbered in those evangelical fundamentalist circles. My studies and research have led me out of it, thankfully. When immersed in it you do not realize how intolerant and unthinking you become. Group think pervades the very atmosphere in these circles and is, unknowingly or not, rewarded. Don't be too different; don't disagree too much or you'll be marginalized or even ostracized. I do not believe they marginalize such a one on purpose. It is more born out of their fear over the weakness and doubting of their own faith I suspect. After all, Martin Luther would say while pointing his finger at me, just look there if you want to see the spiritually devastating results of reason. I proudly stand guilty as charged and the better for it.

"Hell was made for the inquisitive."

- St. Augustine - REALLY?! How utterly absurd!

"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but -- more frequently than not -- struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God." - Martin Luther

"There is on earth among all dangers no more dangerous thing than a richly endowed and adroit reason...Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed." - [Martin Luther, quoted by Walter Kaufmann, _The Faith of a Heretic_, (Garden city, NY, doubleday, 1963), p. 75]

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God." - [Martin Luther]

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his Reason." - Martin Luther -

Now we've finally found some common ground.

Why I'm not Christian anymore

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Mon, 21 May 2012 17:17:39 PDT

By TheAtheistCrusader ~

It is absolutely refreshing to see a site for people like me, who have left Christianity, and the Roman Catholic Church no less. For 10 years of my life, I blindly followed the Bible, never reading it in it's entirety (only some Bible Study-style, alibical versions). Then one night, when I had an identity crisis, I finally realized: "God and Devil are just epitomizations. Neither exist". Then came the reading the real Bible time. And boy was I horrified. Once I got to Deuteronomy, I just dropped it, and said "This is a nice God. If another nicer God exists, I'll go to him".

1. Believers 2. Religion 3. Atheists 4. Science (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

After this series of events, I was in an identity crisis. I was a Deist, or as Frederich Nietzche would say "Tied on a rope between two spans". I examined all sorts of religions, to see one with a nicer God. Then one day, I went on the Atheist Republic page on Facebook (great community page, I suggest you see it) and read quotes from famous atheists. I then realized "The best God is no God". I then decided to read some Hitchens and some Harris. This finished it. After I saw the clever arguments portrayed by the "Unholy Trinity", my de-conversion was complete.

My life was very hard during the time of my Christian faith. Instead of doing something about it, I just prayed to God, hoping it would get better. But finally, when I became an atheist, I fully understood what I faced, and actually did something about it and my life changed dramatically for the better! Thus, atheism really did save me.

Ironically as a Catholic, I never ever doubted evolution, thinking God controlled it. Yet, I finally realized that the Catholics are the Mitt Romney of religion "I'm for science. I'm against it. I'm for it. I'm against it".

I am much happier as an atheist then as a christian. I also realized, in my long, tedious debates with zealots, that "Leave the ignorant alone". I know devote myself to science instead of serving the mass. At last, I found my vocation.

With much hope that Evangelicals will one day shut up,

TheAtheistCrusader

Taking Action

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sun, 20 May 2012 04:04:27 PDT

By Jaded Rogue ~

Like many here I was also raised in a fundamentalist evangelical household with strict adherence to a literal interpretation of the Bible. After finishing seminary and pastoring a local congregation for a couple of years, my father decided to become a missionary. When I was about 8 years old we, my mother and my younger sister and two brothers, moved to Japan to fulfill this “calling”. Here we lived for a decade while my father went to language school and established a church. I attended public school until the tenth grade after which I attended an international Christian high school.

Around the age of 15 I began to deeply question the reason and validity of the very tenets that I had been heavily indoctrinated with throughout my life. Occasionally I would question my father about particular philosophical notions and the unwieldy contradictions that the Bible posed. Furthermore, about life in general. The responses were always Bible verses with a circular rhetoric that never answered my questions and left me feeling emotionally detached from my father. Consequently, also due to being an adolescent who neither felt like an American and certainly wasn’t Japanese, a rebellious stage ensued.

After a few contentious confrontational years, at the age of 18 I walked out of my home and onto the streets as I could take it no longer. With no family or other options for support (all the people I knew were from the church), I lived on the streets until I was arrested for squatting in an empty hut at a remote temple. Suffice to say there is much I am leaving unsaid as the whole story would fill a volume, however, for all intents and purposes I will continue in short. At this point my father concurred with the elders of the home church citing Titus 1:6. “An elder must be blameless, the husband but of one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.” As a result, having no visa or other options to stay on in Japan on my own accord, our family moved back to the U.S. After that I was left to fend for myself, making my own way with the skills (or lack thereof) I had gleaned over this time. Now I am 36. After being thoroughly disheartened with the lack of education, petty politics, and the pitiful prospects offered by American universities, I have fallen back on a life of unemployment, depression and addiction.

I am writing this because I want to find a course of action. Although I have spent some time surfing the internet looking I can’t seem to find what I’m looking for. What I tend to find are articles like Dr. Marlene Winell’s “Its Hard to Get Help.” While very informative, there does not seem to be a course of action described. What is being done to amend the educational system to include psychiatric training to assist those affected by Religious Trauma Syndrome? What is being done to assist those missionary kids, pastors kids, or any other people who have been raised under the cloak of misguided religious fervor? Are there “halfway houses” to give hope and a base from which to form a reasonable life for those who are outcast by family and church? Are there funds, non-profits that assist in the education of those same people who want to fight back through the system?

I want to know. I want to find a way to contribute.

Sacrifice

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sun, 20 May 2012 04:03:48 PDT

By A.D. Stone ~

A fictitious story based on an actual event...

A cloudish foreboding twisted in the sanctuary, as they all waited for a nice settling of energy. Drunken with hype, while their relevant songs were escaping the mouths of those dazed at the meanings of each lyric. Trying to calm down from their emotional frenzy, ushering in the very presence of god – invading the room. Not because he was always there, but because they sang their little hearts out to him demanding his smoke. The aroma of their arrangements and notes all collaborating in unity. Making such a sweet, sweet sound.

Only moments earlier, they were all verbally dancing righteous words spinning them into the air behind each other’s back before the show. Tightly dressed in their crisp attire, they gathered in the hallways and throughout the room, spilling out innuendos and laughing daggers about each other all in the name of love. Revealing just how these pristine lips had been burned with coal from heaven to make them perfect in god’s sight.

They sat quivering in anticipation for the main event that the most sanctified ones had paid for. Walking up to the stadium shoulders slumped, a giant of a man at least 6’5. Dredging his legs with each step, staged with performance he spun to face the crowd. Once towering over people – his words had spoken with authority. Those days slipped away – vaporized in time. The days when his words could sink his power into the souls of those who adored him. His sockets had been sucked dry - his words only fused the inner hidings of defeat.

Slumping a little, while indifference poured from his frown. Each breath forced – pulling out syllables from shallow wells. Managing to speak the play of enthusiasm, his words contrite, filling awkwardness into the air. Clumsily speaking out unable to look at the pool of faces eagerly licking up his every word. His hallowed frame was no longer able to articulate very well, but he was always able to pull from the tried and true. Stammering over the announcements mustering the last bit of excitement his tongue wagged out “God is really changing things, He’s moving.”

The crowd waved with murmuring, their attentions glued to electronic devices, and whispers to each other. They had paid for entertainment – boredom filled their stares. His title was able to receive a few “amen’s” “and one or two “hallelujah’s” the faithful zealots never let god down, even if their anointed was failing they still carried the title. Most importantly, the eager ones needed the less eager to recognize their importance and favor. These enthusiasts knew all of the prayer requests, and every detail about the congregation. They spent their time in prayer every week keeping up appearances.

As he looked, the blurred haze of silhouettes became a nuisance. His thoughts gathering about the game that was coming on the TV later, he used that as his motivation, taking a deep breath he announced who would be speaking. Throwing in several jokes about how awful marriage can be, chuckling out “Praise God for His mercy!” He studiously announced: “Pastor Lil has a marvelous message given to her directly from the Holy Spirit that she is going to share today.”

Dubbed the queen of information, she would share all of her juicy tidbits with her choice person of the week. Using her talent for gathering information through god loving spies her plans were always the same, one remora fish at a time. Mastering her game with dangling tokens, and promises of favor.

Her smirk was as slicing as broken glass, glaring out to the crowed as she walked up prodding for the disciple she chose that week to use during her sermon. She was a colossal woman towering at 5”11 maybe taller. It wasn’t just her height that was so magnificent her mouth was just as enormous. Pounding and boisterous thunder clapping into the ears of any audience. It didn’t matter if they wanted to hear her or not.

The messy dark hair flapped off her head, but somehow she was put together enough for people not to notice much or forget about it. The shards of piercing green eyes felt like stabs when she looked at you directly. They would slant a little when she smiled. Smiles that had hidden attacks in them, and if you listened close enough you would hear “I hate you, you little son of a bitch.” There was no way to prove it - you were only left feeling like a group of football players had tackled you.

Walking up the stairs she was a powerhouse with each stomp, reaching her destination, she yanked the microphone away from him. Turning to her followers, she nodded for him to go. The eyes of the crowd beamed throughout the room, and with no sound. Quickly they all shook off any feelings that made them feel bad. They came to a silent agreement, and relaxed with their heads all going back to watch her.

They enjoyed their little community politics too much and needed it to stay the way it had always been. There was no need to shake things up, everyone knew how they were supposed to behave, and that made them feel powerful. “Such favor I have from god.” Each one would think to themselves with a half-cocked smile. While looking at the person next to them thinking with a sigh “They are so non-spiritual”.

Looming over the podium, she glared in silence, looking out at everyone. Weaving and darting back and forth achieving an uncomfortable and awkward thickness. All murmurs ceased and eyes were glued on her. The fear shook them as each one recalled all the times they had not quieted down when she was up there. Blurting out each sin, they had committed – not by name, but it was very clear to everyone who she was talking about.

She thrived on their energy while making her statements so there would be no confusion. There were enough hints of information that she knew about their business. Teasing them with the threat of exposure. The anxious room inflated her with emotion. Everyone waited for the darts to penetrate one of them. Looking around at each other, but quickly looking back at her trembling.

Letting go of her invisible grip, finally exploding with a slight southern draw crashing into their ears. “Today I am going to teach you about love. I know all about love. I am love ’cause I have Jesus. Jesus is love and I know Jesus so I know love.” The crowd didn’t dare look away – all staring forward nodding their heads agreeing.

“John 3:16 says that God so LOVED. Do you hear me? LOVED. I have sacrificed everything for my kids, my husband, and for you people. That is love. I came from a pit. I know the pit I am came from and Jesus pulled me out. Amen, hallelujah! Praise the Lord, I am free! Now I am love ’cause I know what it’s like to be loved. God loves me so I know how to teach you to love.”

Her husband struck with bewilderment stared at her. His face turning gray, his guts were pouring out all over the floor. Visibly shaking, drifting into his thoughts: “How did we get to this place?” “My God! What happened to me?” If anyone had noticed, they would have seen the death of a soul right in front of them. He quickly stopped, shaking his head again and rubbing his eyes cowering at the floor. As he felt her burning eyes upon his flesh, she could read his thoughts.

He wasn’t from here; the culture was foreign to him and very confusing. In years past he had been a very intelligent man. He was able to articulate ideas and theologies very well. He was bold and confident. He knew who he was and what he believed. It wasn’t simple he had wrestled with his beliefs he was dynamic in explaining the love of God and what that meant. That man was gone. Something had sucked his brain dry and left an empty vessel. There were glimpses of who he really was, but he would quickly stuff him back down before anyone would notice.

At times, he would watch those who didn’t understand the unwritten rules. They would get up and leave. They would walk around outside or congregate in the hallway, as she would go on a rant about something that no one could follow except her closest followers. Disgusted, but deflated he watched them leave in confusion. Sometimes he would have thoughts of escaping as he could hear her faithful’s minds stirring up their brews just like the witches in Macbeth. Hackling about, bringing mounds of chaos as they pranced around. Screeching in unison “Praise the Lord,” “Glory,” “Hallelujah,” “Amen sister,” and “Preach it!” Trumpeting from their horns in triumph.

Always encouraged by her brewed – she would go on and on about whatever she watched on TV that week. Sharing her encounters with vegans. Never shy to give her opinions about how she couldn’t believe they were so stupid. Shouting and beating her chest: “God made animals for me to eat! God made animals for me to have a fur coat! These people need to get off their high horse, and eat some meat, maybe then - they wouldn’t waste so much time protesting. Really, I just wanted to go shopping in peace and not have these morons in my way.”

Today her message was about love, spiritually on fire because she had just returned from Mexico being on a mission trip. Clamoring to the crowd how they needed to comprehend her abilities to give glory to god. Unable to control her exuberance she told them the story of how she prayed over someone, and their shorter thumb miraculously grew to the same length as their other thumb. Leaving out the part that the person was a five-year-old. Everyone was very impressed. Her faithful jumped up wailing “Glory!” and shouting out praises toward her. Running up and down the stairs – arms thrashing about in intense description.

Leading back into her message pounding her fists on the podium splintered words flew from her wet lips: “I am all about love. I love you just like Jesus. I give you all of me. I pour out myself in prayer over you! Now listen, part of love is giving. You need to give in order to receive. I give to you all of me, and I expect you to give too so I will receive from all of the seeds I have sewn. Like in the area of finances, I am a giver, I tithe, and I get. If you tithe, just like the Bible says in Malachi 3, god will open up the heavens. See if you give like you are supposed to, you won’t be in the mess that you are in. God will bless you if you give now that is love. If you love god you will give, that is an act of love. You show god and me that you love us by giving your tithe. Now don’t get me wrong I don’t want you to show your love by giving so that I can get. I want to do missions. We need to go to other countries. I need to show those people my love and how much god loves them.”

“Here’s what we are asking; just give up one Starbucks a week. Just one, you know $3, $4, maybe $5. I don’t know, however, much you spend there $6? Whatever, put it aside and tithe it to our missions. Come on, this is love, giving up your Starbucks. I know the world says we are in a recession, but not god! Hallelujah! We are blessed! Amen, praise the Lord!”

Lightening crashing from her body banging out: “JUST ONE STARBUCKS PEOPLE! THAT’S ALL WE ASK!!”

Thrusting out all of her energy, sweat beading down her hairline she calmed for a moment feeling vulnerable in her theatrics. Standing still, gaining composure she spoke: “I say we love ’cause god first loved us. Since, I am anointed and know god’s love I can share my love with you and with the world. I know love.”

Closing her eyes, raising her hands, and pacing across the stage she began to pray.

“Father thank you for the love you have given me that I am able to share it with all of these people and many more around the world. I ask you to bless these people and lay it on their hearts to do what is right. So I can spread your love all over the world. Stop the enemy from hindering your ordained plans. Open the eyes of everyone here to see the plans you want m... us to fulfill. In Jesus name, I pray. Hallelujah!”

Confusion rushing everyone they walked out feeling they had been ambushed in a war battle, but thinking: “It must have been really great. Everyone else seems ok – maybe I am not spiritual enough? Wait, no I get it she was really on fire today. The Holy Spirit was speaking through her.” Those who didn’t agree did not say a word – they knew what would happen if they spoke up. They gave knowing glances and went about their business falling into their little games and giving it no more thought.

Later, that day one of her faithful posted a scripture verse on her Facebook. Something in Psalms about not touching god’s anointed or harming his prophets. The version was very different from any Pastor Lil had read before when she saw it she had to know where they found it. It was perfect for her next sermon. She wrote, “Hey, I like that! What translation is it? I can’t look it up right now, I’m in Starbucks.”

Looking for Atheist/Free Thinkers/Agnostic/Humanists/Non-Religious Families in the Atlanta Area

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sun, 20 May 2012 04:03:21 PDT

From Serita Wesley ~

Hello All,

I hope all is well. This might not be the first time you are hearing from me; however, I am a casting director with Cineflix Productions (www.cineflix.com).

Vectorized Southern Baptist Convention logo (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

I am currently working on a documentary series that is to take place in the Atlanta area. The show is for A&E, and will revolve around modern day American families (traditional, non-traditional, all faiths, all races, all creeds, all walks of life) coexisting. It is an opportunity to teach another family as well as learn something new. The basic idea is to show that we might all have differences, some extreme, some not so extreme; but when it comes down to it, we are all very similar. The show is a sociological experiment that promotes tolerance.

LOOKING FOR FAMILIES IN THE ATLANTA AREA WHO ARE AGNOSTIC/ATHEIST OR FREE THINKERS!!

Major cable network is looking for outgoing & outspoken non-religious families in the Atlanta area to star in a brand new documentary TV series.

We are especially interested in families with children who would be willing to share with and learn from other families.

All types of families are encouraged to apply (traditional, non-traditional, single parents, same sex, etc.)

If you've ever thought your family should be on TV now's your chance.

Email us at:
FamilyHomeCasting@Cineflix.comSince I have been casting in the "Bible Belt," I have had no luck finding a family that is not a strict Southern Baptist. Seeing as though we are attempting to represent the modern American family, and not all family's are Southern Baptist, or even religious at all, I am somewhat at a dead end.

I wanted to reach out to see if you had a family and might be interested or if you wouldn't mind passing along this letter and the casting info below to families that you feel would be interested.

Please feel free to contact me at any time.

Best,

Serita Wesley

LOOKING FOR FAMILIES IN THE ATLANTA AREA WHO ARE AGNOSTIC/ATHEIST OR FREE THINKERS!!

Major cable network is looking for outgoing & outspoken non-religious families in the Atlanta area to star in a brand new documentary TV series.

We are especially interested in families with children who would be willing to share with and learn from other families.

All types of families are encouraged to apply (traditional, non-traditional, single parents, same sex, etc.)

If you've ever thought your family should be on TV now's your chance.

Email us at:
FamilyHomeCasting@Cineflix.com

Escaping the Word of Faith

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sun, 20 May 2012 04:04:38 PDT

By Jonny Scaramanga ~

I used to be a Christian fundamentalist. Through college, this was my dirty secret. I only told my closest friends. Coming from Britain, where it's a smaller phenomenon, most of them had no idea people like me existed.

Now I've come to own it. I used to be a fundamentalist, and I escaped. It's such a relief to declare it, and realise that I'm breathing fresh air for the first time in my life. Before, I had to make up excuses for why I'd never heard classic rock songs (because I was in church when they were on the radio), or never drunk alcohol. The relief of making it public is huge. Everyone is so supportive; they can't believe I made it out.

If you're keeping it a dirty secret, don't. It wasn't even your fault. You were misled, by your parents and your pastors.

I was part of the Word of Faith, the Prosperity gospel, blab-it-and-grab-it religion of preachers like Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Creflo Dollar, and Jesse Duplantis. They teach the doctrine of positive confession: You can have what you say, according to Mark 11:23.

Just as God spoke the world into existence, you can speak your desires into existence by faith.

I look at it now and I wonder how anyone fell for it. But they had Scripture verses. And that was enough. The Bible is the final authority, after all.

Once you accept that doctrine, it's viciously difficult to get out. As any ex-fundamentalist can tell you, bad thoughts are placed in your head by the devil. That's an incredibly powerful piece of mind control. If you accept that doubt comes from the devil, then it can't possibly be legitimate. And the only way out is to fill your mind with the Word of God, until the doubts are pushed out. And if you do doubt, you feel guilty for letting in the devil.

Not only that, but faith preachers said that negative things you say will come to pass, just as surely as positive things. So if you're having doubts, you can't speak them, because that would make them happen. You could have an entire church full of people thinking, "I don't think I'm ever going to get the hundredfold return," but no one will admit it! The act of admitting it would cut them off from God's blessings.

That's religion as a mechanism for control, and if you know someone in the Word of Faith, it won't be easy to make them see it. My Dad never did see it; he died believing it, having given away literally tens of thousands of pounds, believing he was sowing seed.

Luckily, I got a good education. Not at first – to begin with I was educated in Accelerated Christian Education, which is packed with misinformation, propaganda, and racism. Thankfully, after I had a breakdown at school, my mum removed me. It took four years of good education after that for me to begin to think critically.

My social skills were crippled. But eventually I learned to hang out. Every time I held a normal conversation, inside, I was jumping up and down, thinking "I'm doing it! I'm socialising!"

The doubts, the feeling I was going to hell – they all went away in the end. If you're in the process of deconverting, don't lose heart. It does get better.

19 Years of Questions Unanswered

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sat, 19 May 2012 05:17:38 PDT

By Adriana ~

I seem to have a similar story to many on here. I grew up in a Christian home, raised in a Southern Baptist church, and even after my family switched to a more laid-back church, I was forced into going to BSF, and had other very conservative ideas given to me.

Getup Get God (Photo credit: prettywar-stl)

I accepted Jesus at a young age, about six. When I was young enough to not be able to fully think about things, I was fine, going to Sunday school and such. As I got older, things stopped making sense. God created humans to worship him, and we'd all worship him in heaven? Wasn't that a little narcissistic? What if I didn't want to sit around and worship God all the time? But I was afraid of hell, and I didn't want God to know I was thinking such blasphemy, so I stuck with it. As I got older, I'd pray, at my mother's encouragement, for good teachers and good friends at school. This never worked. While I did have friends, I usually didn't like my teachers and was bullied often. My mom would just say it's because I had God and they could sense something different about me. Sure, elementary school kids rip other kids apart for a religion they had but didn't talk about much.

As a teenager, I discovered these Christian kids in the church youth group were not only terrible friends, but not very good people either. I wondered how these people with the Holy Spirit in them could be so cruel and judgmental. I guess this is where I started to turn agnostic-there may be a god out there, but clearly He wasn't as invested in people as the preacher would have you think, and I hadn't felt "the spirit" in a very long time, so I didn't know where God fit in. It felt like God had abandoned me-I was having a terrible time at school, in my family and with my friends, even the ones that were supposed to follow God, and I didn't understand how a loving God I had tried to follow by reading the Bible and following what I was being told could set me back at every turn. My mom told me God was preparing me for something later, but I saw all the nonreligious (or bratty religious) kids having an easier time, at least in areas I was having trouble in. This didn't satisfy my rational thinking. I was also beginning to wonder why things like premarital sex, cussing and homosexuality were wrong, while strong judgement against those who were different ran rampant, while talking about love Sunday morning.

I also seriously questioned things I had been told, like a Christian can sin, but it was okay because they had God, whereas a non-Christian could do something good and it was still evil in God's eyes. Or how prayer is the best thing you could do, and telling someone you'll pray for them and then not is the worst thing you could do to them. The power of prayer was always lost on me. I also hated church leaders' preoccupation with sex, whether my friends or I were having it, and whether or not we would do it before marriage. No one ever told me how to avoid it or what made married sex so great. I still struggle some with my virginity not making a difference in my value as a person. Not to mention if I did ask questions, I'd get "read the Bible," "I just believe," or frustration at my constant questioning. Reading the Bible, boring as it was, didn't bring many answers, unless you count all those notes that made me want to strange whoever wrote them. I could go on and on about the things I found wrong, or emotional damage these things caused me, but there's not enough room on the internet.

The summer before my junior year of high school my family and I moved across the country to a much more liberal place. I had prayed in a last-ditch effort to have an easier time in school that year, so I thought maybe God was finally showing himself. The little church we went to there was better, but once again, the only people I had issues with (one or two this time, much more mild than before) were religious. I thought more and more, and had complete culture shock, and saw things from a completely different perspective. My senior year English class was full of philosophical musings-is life predestined, or all a fluke? Are you going to do something no matter what, or do you really have free will? My friends and I lost sleep figuring this out, and I thought, maybe, free will was a lie we told ourselves to make ourselves feel better. After all, if there's a god that had a will for everyone, how could we truly make our own choices? I couldn't yet comprehend everything being a fluke yet.

Now I'm 19 and in my first year of college. Moving out of my parents' has been great for me. I've been able to think about things, read book and articles online without fear of anyone seeing. I'm still agnostic, but leaning towards Atheism. It's such a relief to not have to please some being up there, and all the guilt I've had associated with it. Oh, and for what it's worth, I believe in free will now, because I think everything's chance. But I find this so much more comforting than having to figure out "God's will" for me, or otherwise be sinning. I got through my senior year and to college without a single prayer for guidance, and for the most part I'm really happy. All that praying growing up didn't do anything.

Who is Arrogant?

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Sat, 19 May 2012 05:18:02 PDT

By WizenedSage (Galen Rose) ~

It appears to be fashionable these days to call atheists arrogant. Over and over we read how Dawkins is arrogant, Hitchens perhaps even more so, and Sam Harris is clearly just a “know-it-all” with an attitude problem. In fact, if you read the postings on this site for a bit, you will “learn” that we un-famous atheists are arrogant, too.

Now, if expressing an unpopular opinion means that one is arrogant, then we have no defense. But, let’s look at a typical dictionary definition of the word: “Arrogant; having or showing an exaggerated opinion of one's own importance, merit, ability, etc.; conceited; overbearingly proud.”

That part about “having or showing an exaggerated opinion of one's own importance, merit, ability,” catches my eye. Isn’t it Christians who claim they are god’s “saved?” Talk about “one’s own importance!” Isn’t it Christians who claim they KNOW which is the real god and what he wants from us? Mightn’t that be an exaggerated opinion of one’s abilities? I certainly wouldn’t claim the ability to identify a real god, with any certainty. So who is the arrogant one, here?

While the Christian claims he KNOWS with certainty that Bible-god is the one true god, I humbly submit that different people have claimed thousands of different gods to be the one true god, we know for certain that thousands of those were false gods, and so I have no confidence that I could do any better spotting the real god than those people did. Do you not see the difference here? The very fact that men have followed thousands of false gods convinces me that we humans are hopeless when it comes to identifying which gods are real and which are false.

But the Christian brushes all that aside, because he knows. And how does he know? Because people told him so, or he feels it, or both. The Bible tells him which is the real god, though how the Christian can tell the Bible is the real “holy” book and not one of the others, like the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, etc., he seems unable to explain. But, generally this doesn’t trouble him because he feels the presence of the one true god within himself. How he knows which god it is that he feels must remain a mystery.

William Lane Craig speaks of the “self-verification” of the Holy Ghost within himself being sufficient proof of god for him, and most Christians would buy this. Call me a nit picker, but I have a problem with anyone claiming they can feel the truth. I have first-hand experience on this issue which convinces me that these people are just fooling themselves. I once felt the presence of a god, and constantly “conversed” with this god inside my head. I no longer feel that presence. Obviously, god either exists or he doesn’t, and my feelings have never been able to prove it either way because my feelings have been on both sides of the issue. In other words, my feelings failed to prove anything. Now, who is the arrogant one? Is it Craig, who claims he can feel truth, or me, who has no confidence in his feelings as a test of truth? It seems that old adage applies here: Faith means never having to say you’re wrong.

Many Christians are so arrogantly certain that they have the truth that they have no interest in studying further. Many will deny evolution, although they obviously have never read anything on evolution that wasn’t written by creationists.

Also, home schooling is apparently on the rise in America today. Why? Because many Christian parents don’t want their children exposed to unapproved information. Christian parents and preachers seem to be insisting that what people “knew” 2,000 years ago is more important than anything man has learned since. Most Christian congregations encourage their members to avoid marrying outside the faith, and some even frown on members even mingling with non-Christians. There is a pattern here. It appears that Christians are so sure they have the truth that they often actively avoid gaining further information. It seems to me that if one truly wants to find the truth, the real truth, then he should follow the path containing the MOST information. Isn’t this obvious?

I find that most of the atheists I know are hungry for information. A great many are science enthusiasts and are well read in world history. Tellingly, many atheists are also surprisingly conversant in theology. Now who are the arrogant ones? Are those who are constantly seeking more information and revising their opinions really the arrogant ones? That was a rhetorical question – no answer necessary.

So, Christians are convinced they have the truth because they have been told this (by the Bible, preachers, parents, etc.), or they feel it, or both, while atheists suspect there is no god. Now, I don’t know of any atheists who think they can prove there is no god. They merely believe that gods are extremely unlikely, like dragons are unlikely, and so they don’t believe in them.

For myself, I don’t believe in gods because I know I cannot trust my feelings to identify the truth, and I don’t know why I should be able to tell a real god when I see one, any more than those millions throughout history who have worshipped thousands of false gods. Did I say, “when I see one?” Yes, and I meant to say that, for that is exactly the problem, you see. All gods are invisible. How convenient.

As Discordia recently pointed out on this site, the Christian god is all-powerful and can do anything, anything at all, it appears, except prove that he exists. Well, he either can’t or won’t prove it, and it really doesn’t much matter which it is. For thousands of years we humans have been fighting over which is the real god, or which sect has the real truth. We have mistreated each other horribly over these questions, from the Crusades through the Inquisitions, to fighting over abortion and gay marriage. Given this history, I think we humans have a right - and maybe even a moral obligation to each other - to refuse acceptance of the claims pertaining to any god until that god proves his or her existence. If there’s a real god, then he/she surely would understand this position.

It is because I am NOT arrogant that I make this proposal. It is because I recognize that I cannot prove whether there is or isn’t a god. Think about it: why in hell should we humans suffer, generation after generation, for our gullibility - simply because some god can’t or won’t prove that he exists such that we can all agree on it? This is a lousy, unfair deal, and we should simply refuse it. And what kind of perverse, arrogant god would fault us for refusing to beat each other up over gods any longer, while he refuses to prove decisively that he exists?

Frans de Waal: Moral behavior in animals

noreply@blogger.com (webmdave) — Thu, 17 May 2012 01:53:44 PDT

Empathy, cooperation, fairness and reciprocity -- caring about the well-being of others seems like a very human trait. But Frans de Waal shares some surprising videos of behavioral tests, on primates and other mammals, that show how many of these moral traits all of us share.

If you ask anyone, what is morality based on? These are the two factors that always come out: One is reciprocity … and a sense of fairness, and the other one is empathy and compassion.” (Frans de Waal)

Dr. Frans B. M. de Waal is a biologist and primatologist known for his work on the behavior and social intelligence of primates. His first book, Chimpanzee Politics (1982), compared the schmoozing and scheming of chimpanzees involved in power struggles with that of human politicians. Ever since, de Waal has drawn parallels between primate and human behavior, from peacemaking and morality to culture. His scientific work has been published in hundreds of technical articles in journals such as Science, Nature, Scientific American, and outlets specialized in animal behavior. His popular books – translated into fifteen languages – have made him one of the world’s most visible primatologists. His latest books are Our Inner Ape (2005, Riverhead) and The Age of Empathy (2009, Harmony).

De Waal is C. H. Candler Professor in the Psychology Department of Emory University and Director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Center, in Atlanta. He has been elected to the National Academy of Sciences (US), the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the Royal Dutch Academy of Sciences. In 2007, he was selected by Time as one of The Worlds’ 100 Most Influential People Today, and in 2011 by Discover as among 47 (all time) Great Minds of Science.
Read TEDxPeachtree's Q&A with Frans de Waal >>